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Post by daveyboy on Jun 22, 2009 15:55:26 GMT 10
Why do Australian jazz musos (as far as I know, it's predominantly a local trait; correct me if I'm wrong) refer to their favourite musicians, many of whom are dead and most of whom they presumably don't know personally, by their first names?
From where did this peculiar practice arise? Any theories as to what's behind it?
Because, it doesn't really occur in any other creative field, as far as I know. Do writers refer to "Harper" or "Brett Easton" or "E. Annie"? I'm a painter/sculptor and it's certainly hard to remember any of my colleagues ever referring to "Pablo" or "Andy" or "Piet". Yet when I hang out with jazz musos at gigs it's all "Miles" and Duke". (OK, at least those two are fairly unique names and there's little chance of misunderstanding. But "Keith"? "Herbie"? "Jack"?) It really is most unusual. My personal feeling is that it's a little bit excruciating, but maybe that's just me. Over to you, folks.
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Post by bobbob on Jun 22, 2009 19:49:25 GMT 10
Rembrandt... Michelangelo...
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Post by vickibonet on Jun 22, 2009 22:55:23 GMT 10
What about creative cuisine? Georgio, Lydia, Nigella, Jamie, Bill, Kylie, Carluccio, Stephanie, ... all highly creative cooks. Aussie jazz must have something in common with fab food.
What about golfers?
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Post by shaggaz on Jun 23, 2009 13:52:32 GMT 10
What a strange thing to find excruciating!
As for golf, I hear Tiger far more than I hear Woods!
Perhaps it is dependent on whether the first name, the surname or the nickname is considered more 'memorable' or unique or something.
Miles had many records with his name in the title. Maybe that made a difference?
Case by case basis I reckon.
Bird vs Charles or Parker
Mingus vs Charles
Jelly Roll vs Morton
Duke vs Edward Kennedy or Ellington!
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Post by punter on Jun 23, 2009 14:27:02 GMT 10
Ms Proulx has dropped the E. no no not dropped an 'e' dropped the E. |
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Post by trumpetguy on Jun 23, 2009 14:29:34 GMT 10
Pink
Madonna
Cher
Kenny G
Altichiero
El Greco
Raphael
Rolf (Harris)
Mirka
Bert (Newton)
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Post by vickibonet on Jun 23, 2009 14:38:33 GMT 10
I touched Bert's bum once. Colin Hopkins was my witness.
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Post by punter on Jun 23, 2009 14:53:10 GMT 10
Stinky
Noysie
Joking
Scrote
Lugie
Mr Cunty Bum
... the list goes on
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Post by trumpetguy on Jun 23, 2009 15:22:54 GMT 10
I touched Bert's bum once. Colin Hopkins was my witness. Newton bums are famous - Matthew's was all over the telly in underbelly |
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Post by aj on Jun 23, 2009 15:50:30 GMT 10
As for golf, I hear Tiger far more than I hear Woods! Bird vs Charles or Parker Mingus vs Charles Jelly Roll vs Morton Duke vs Edward Kennedy or Ellington! Mickelson rather than Phil, Faldo rather than Nick, Shark rather than Greg or Norman. Shaggaz rather than Shannon or Barnett (or Grant). |
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Post by shaggaz on Jun 23, 2009 19:25:10 GMT 10
or Noll!
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Post by daveyboy on Jun 23, 2009 22:12:29 GMT 10
Thanks everyone. I guess I should refine my query a little. "Duke" and "Miles" were perhaps not the best examples because they were either a stage or professional name, or, as was pointed out, they even released albums with just their first name on the cover. Although, in the case of Miles Davis (I was surprised to discover when I checked in my record collection and poked around on Amazon), not as many as you might think - Milestones, Miles Smiles, Miles Ahead, all still have his full name prominently on the cover. As far as I can see, Sketches of Spain and We Want Miles are the only ones that don't, and even Sketches of Spain has his full name on the back in very prominent letters at the very top. (I'm talking LP here.)
So, by those more defined criteria, I don't think Rembrandt or Michaelangelo prove anything, as that is how they are both known professionally. Nigella Lawson has released books with just her first name in the title...Bill Grainger has restaurants called Bill's...Pink, Madonna, Cher, these are stage names even if they are also the artist's first names...and many of the others people have given here are nicknames, which is not something I was talking about. I'm well aware that many people refer to "Bird" and "Trane" and so on.
No, it's ones like "Jack", "Herbie", "Keith", "Chick" "Tony" etc - none of these artists are known this way professionally, but Australian jazz aficionados are on first-name terms with them, despite presumably not knowing them personally.
Does anyone know if jazz people outside Australia refer to such artists in this way, or is it unique to Australia? Over many years I've spent a fair bit of time overseas hanging out at gigs as a listener, and can't ever recall anyone I spoke to talking like that. But maybe there's someone here who's spent time living and working in the jazz scene in New York or somewhere, who can speak with more authority.
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Post by timothystevens on Jun 23, 2009 23:51:03 GMT 10
Or Doah. This is one of the dumbest threads ever. |
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Post by isaacs on Jun 24, 2009 6:40:10 GMT 10
This is one of the dumbest threads ever. I find the premise interesting to explore a bit. I keep it within music and simply compare to the way classical listeners talk about composers, almost always last names. When I was at University I was talking about Chick Corea with a lecturer. I kept saying "Chick" this and "Chick" that and with him it was always "Corea" this and "Corea" that (I know Chick is a nickname, but it functions as a first name). I think there's some kind of thesis there turning on the way the listeners identify with the artists. Jazz listeners find their heroes more personally knowable in some way than classical. Other aspects of the music reflects that in the more informal presentation of jazz. But there's one exception. It's never John. Always Coltrane (or Trane). PS In my experience non-Australian jazz musicians say Keith, Tony, Jack etc just as readily. |
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Post by daveyboy on Jun 24, 2009 9:42:11 GMT 10
Sorry timothystevens, with your academic background I thought it would have piqued your interest, at least semiotically. I identified what I find to be an interesting trait, and threw it open for discussion as to what it means and what's behind it. Oh well.
Thank you isaacs for your thoughts. Yes, interesting it's never "John". Yet, on the other hand, though it's quite standard, as in all fields, to refer to jazz artists by their surnames, I've never heard anyone refer to "Davis". If he's not Miles he's Miles Davis.
And there we go, you've heard non-Aussie jazz musos use the first name. That sort of white-ants the theory that I was forming, although there may be legs in it yet. I was theorising that Australian jazz musos keenly feel a sense of isolation, in that many of the giants of their field have never even come here. Elvin Jones, Tony Williams never came, Miles Davis only came once, Keith Jarrett, as far as I know, has never brought his trio, and so on. Yet artists of that stature tour Japan and the US and Europe all the time. Maybe it's a subconscious way of bringing them a little closer... Dunno. Would be interested in peoples' thoughts. (Although, as far as I know, Andy Warhol and Pablo Picasso and Piet Mondrian never came either, yet as I pointed out, you'll never hear Australian visual artists referring to them by their first names.)
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