HELLO LURKERS

[Kenny]

Frankly, I'm getting sick of my own company.

The posting activity goes through sporadic spurts and then recedes to zilch.

Mark's gone to a lot of trouble to set this up, and I'd like to share his belief that the Australian jazz/whateveryouwanttocallit community can utilise and justify his efforts.

There's a lot of lurkers; and a lot of posters who drop in for a quick cryptic comment and then piss off.

I can understand the desire for anonyimity, given the smallness of Australia's scene.

What I can't understand is the lurkers who obviously feel inclined to keep tabs on what goes down here but feel utterly uninspired to particpate.

Come on!

It can be issues as on the Stanko or Bells or whatever threads.

Or it can be just any old crap.

On Jazz Corner and AAJ, I seem to split my time between yakking about politics and letting the fan in me free - discussing specific artists and eras and albums and show.

Or are you all just too cool?

Hell, I've even met someone who admitted they enjoyed reading the stuff, but that person has never posted either.

Anyone want to share a favourite recipe?

[Lurker]

I drop in to read this forum from time to time, solely to see what the latest thing to bash is.

From my perspective, 90% of the posts on this forum are completely anti-establishment for the sake of being anti-establishment. Very few people bother to think (or at least type) anything other than "person X is a dumb person because he knows nothing about Jazz and you should all listen to me because I know better." or "I heard something from my cousin's housemate's brother who works for the nephew of the owner of the dog that used to be owned by a guy who is related to someone who knows someone who makes coffee for the MIJF Board"

Quite simply, my belief is that if these people know better than the people who do actually seem to get things done (which the public seem to like them doing it), why are they not doing something about it other than whining here?

If you don't like the current state of the MIJF, tell them. If you don't think telling them will get you anywhere - set up your own festival and quit whining about them.

At least some people understand this concept and have set up Half-Bent, and I applaud them for it.

So why don't I use my real name here? Why should I? No-one else here wants to be known as posting their comments and then turning up to the gigs that they bash, then they would be known as a hypocrite.
Why don't I post more often - well I generally don't agree with most of what is posted here as 'fact' and why should I bother to type out responses and arguments pointing out why these people's 'fact' have no basis in reality. So, I sit back, I lurk, and I laugh at every one of these 'factual' posts and then forget about them until the next time i log on here to read another topic with an almost identical rant in it.

At this point I would like to thank Mark for setting this forum up, I'm sure it requires/ed a lot of effort, and he should get some recognition for it.

In closing I would like to say: Australia has a great Jazz scene and any extra gigs we get for any reason is good - the more people that recognise our country as a place for Jazz, the more people that will want to come and visit us and the more people that will turn up to gigs.

I'll stop ranting now. If people care to respond to this, I might actually bother to reply, but chances are I will just read the responses and laugh.

[Kenny]

Well, cheers for replying!

As I said above, I can fully understand posting anonymously in the context of Oz jazz.

And yes, a lot of the posts are one-off bitch sessions with little thought.

But I think putting it at 90% is a little unfair. And that situation is easily changed.

As I implied above, to focus on MIJF or the Bells or other political matters deals a serious blow to the versatility and possibilities a forum such as this could be party to.

I guess a lot of my frustration comes from the fact that my experiences elsewhere online have taught me in tremendous, hilarious, touching, moving, enlightening, educational ways that participating in jazz-based bulletin boards can be a helluva lot of fun.

I have been sending Oz CDs to the northern hemispehere for a couple of years through AAJ. I have made friends through AAJ and Jazz Corner, and am now regularly trading CDs with their members.

More than that, a lot of the exchanges have nothing to do, overtly, with jazz at all, but range freely over all sorts of music and non-music territory. But jazz is the common bond.

Online jazz BBs have literally changed my world, and for the better - and I would like to see this place get humming in the same way. It ain't the real world (whatever that is), but it's a very handy adjunct for sure.

While Australia, and Melbourne and Sydney in particular, have sufficient population to keep a jazz scene prospering, it may be, however, that there's just not enough juice, or enough people, or enough energy to keep a board such as this going.

We'll see.

There are plenty of musicians who post at both AAJ and JC, but I doubt they'd make up 10 per cent. Here, I suspect, it's the other way around. So that may effect the forum's viability - my experience is that more often than not musos themselves are not necessarily that interested in talking about their work (job?).

And outside of radio presenters, there just doesn't seem to be that many diehard jazz fans around - I don't mean the music supporters who go to Bennetts Lane or Wangaratta every now and then, but the ones who spend most of their waking hours thinking/reading/talking about it - or, sometimes (!), even listening to it.

So maybe I'm outta line here.

[Another lurker]

to lurker...
What makes you think that the people who have the odd bitch aren't getting anything done???
I think you would be quite suprised in fact to know that the same people are some of the most active around. Maybe they whinge because it's fucking hard work getting things happening and made more so by some of the stuff that gets mentioned.
And rather than just sitting back and having a little chuckle, why don't you use your obvious command of the language to tell us what you think is the state of the MIJF or whatever it's going to be called....

[Lurker]

And rather than just sitting back and having a little chuckle, why don't you use your obvious command of the language to tell us what you think is the state of the MIJF or whatever it's going to be called....

Personally I think they have done a great job and the festival looks like it is going on to bigger and better things.

My reasoning behind this:
3 years ago there was no MIJF - the state government had removed it's funsing and only through an outcry from both musicians and the jazz scene as a whole , got anyone to notice that it had disappeared.

This helped bring this tragedy into a semi-limelight which attracted some of the current MIJF board members to it's cause.

Since then, the board, as well as AJ have helped to build the MIJF up to a point where after AJ decided to concentrate on Wang, they were able to go out and get one of the biggest names in festival programming in the world to come here and program a festival for them.

Not only have they attracetd a proven festival programmer, they have also secured major events funding from some large sponsors and the government and from what I have heard on the grapevine, some absolutely huge international acts to come play at next years festival.

With all of the above said, I am somewhat wary of the festival being overly international rather than featuring more local acts, but in the scheme of things - I would rather have international audiences considering both Melbourne and Ausralia as a 'Jazz' destination so that they come here during the course of the year to see and hear local gigs - even if it comes at the expense of having some of the local players not do many gigs during that festival.

Sorry, did I type too much again?

[Loiterer]

Yeah but they're squandering the 'capital' the festival has built under AJ. What about Albare's comments in that newspaper article about AJ being too conservative or whatever... it's like 'out with the old and in with the new.' The festival was in the process of 'becoming' and now they are trying to remodel it on a completely different premise.
If it had just cooked away for a few more years good things would have kept happening.

[Kenny]

Guest-Loiterer said:

If it had just cooked away for a few more years good things would have kept happening.

Maybe that's so. But equally maybe it's not. And that's a mighty big "If" that starts that sentence. Now we'll never know.

[Tinkler]

It would seem strange to me that Albare says AJ is conservative. AJ has a good balance of musical styles at his festivals. Judging by Umbrias progamming and Albares taste Id say they were far more conservative.
The question of the future of this fest is of course impossible for us to tell at this point, I too share Kenny's fears as well as his hopes.
The one thing that does shit me is the new name of the Festival. It should still be the MIJF, to me that name explains all we need to know.
PS- hope you dont mind me using my own name.

[galaxian]

you have a good point scott. i am certainly guitly of reading, thinking of posting, then not. so i will take your challenge and participate with more frequency and vigor.

i guess one thing that i find difficult at times (as i dont live in melbourne or sydney) is that i sometimes dont know what the @#$! people are talking about. then i dont feel i can contribute to the topic but still enjoy reading the dialogue that is posted. so perhaps i am a true lurker......i like to watch!!

anyways what is the festival called now?

[Kenny]

Guest-galaxian said:

so i will take your challenge and participate with more frequency and vigor.

Hell, dump the guilt stuff and post freely. Onya!

Being from Melbourne or Sydney is far from being any guarantee of understanding what %#@*&% people here are talking about. ;D

[galaxian]

oops

you started this thread kneny not scott. must pay credit where credit is due. twas late and my eyes are getting weaker by the day. more carrots..... less wine!

[thin king]

being out of the local loop, what is the new name? Is it the Umbria in Melbourne Jazz Festival thingy, or of that style? Um, tell me if I`m wrong here, but isn't that most of the reason the MIJF were able to secure the major events funding? Small loss, if it is a loss.
Lurker, I'm lapping ya! Kindreds in the Think King... But a little note... with the loss of funding those years ago, don't forget that that little RIP Jazz club held their own festival in the wake of the announced no-go festival. They were able to put on nearly all the programmed internationals due to their promoters looking elsewhere for a catch in the local scene for their lost bookings. Michael T did a lot of work in the few months between November (announcement) and January to put on the 3 week festival, and on the back of it earned the interest of the MCC to re-establish the MIJF somehow, which he did. Chairing the first festival and then handing it on to Albare (Albert?). credit where credit is due.
I have to agree to the arguement for the difference in local versus international acts too. In the long run, for locals to be heard performing along side big internationals will only strengthen the image of the scene here, which means pulling the high end and less 'fillers' (although I'm slightly embarrassed to be using the term). But there's also the Wang Fest, which is really a celebration of local talent which has rightfully pulled the acclaim it has. But, to resume, strengthening the 'image' of Jazz in Oz, not only writes itself into the international mind market, but also the home market, meaning that the year long program of local venues might find a growing audience to support it... It's a marketing scheme of merit I think.
And hey, I'd rather one time of the year to be able to hear more internationals cause I know for the rest of the year I can hear my locals, where my heart will always belong. And to be able to love them more because I'll have a matured palate to be able to appreciate them on. I mean, common, the festival only lasts two weeks... it's not a lifetime. And the funding they get only helps concreteise the importance of jazz in Australia... in the long run oppening more funding opportunities for locals... Vision here, but with the opening of the touring gateway this festival is doing by appointing Carlo, won't there be more funding proposals put in to aid local artist to secure international tours and performances?
High Ho Silver and away I say!
And I'll end my rant with that...

[Tinkler]

It is to be called 'Umbria Jazz In Melbourne' I believe. I know that its only a name, but to me it sounds pretty sad. I dont see why it couldn't remain the MIJF after all its Melbourne money that is paying for it, unless Umbria is putting in money for us to advertise their name.
I hope your supposition that there will be more funding opportunity is right, but what is required for that is the Arts bodies making more money available. There is allready plenty of things for us muso's to apply for conceptually, but not enough funding for us to realistically acheive them all.
As far as having 'Local Fillers' on at the fest, whats to say they wont still have the fillers and not whatever the opposite is?
I actually am totally into the concept of what they are trying to acheive. Having the chance to check out some big name artists on home ground is exciting for the whole scene Im sure. Maybe they'll even have time to check out the Aus scene and the great music on offer here.
The extent to which this relationship will be successful remains to be seen. I really do hope that 'the opening of the touring gateway' does occur for some Aus artists and there is money made available to realise it. What I'd hate to see happen is lots of local money going towards giving the Umbria crew some free bands to use as 'Filler' at their festival.

[Kenny]

thin king, tinkler: some interesting speculation.

Maybe, taking a positive spin, MIJF and Wang for the past couple of years have been too much alike. I don't think this was AJ's doing, more it being a result of funding difficulties.

(And BTW, where I can applaud Dave Liebman as brilliant, heavyweight booking for Wang, I doubt he'd raise much excitement at the new Melb fest).

Hopefully, fingers crossed, we might now have festivals that complement each other.

As pointed out above, there is much to be gained.

Another clarification: My newspaper, the Sunday Herald Sun, is continuing its sponsorship relationship with the Melbourne festival, whatever it is called, but as it stands I'm not privy to anything special. So far. Nevertheless, I hope that doesn't preclude me from the sort of debate that is going on here. I'm me, too! Not just a Rupert hack.

[thin king]

Scott, I understand the lack of funding for realising many of the noteable and worthy projects that do or don't get up. But I'm guessing that if major arts bodies and government organisations who are putting their money in to support the alliance between Umbria and Melbourne are doing so in view of possible tourist dollars. It seems small minded to me to think that they wouldn't further their investment by supporting the gateway they've opened by funding local musicians to use it. But my hopes were dashed in the election, and in all honesty, I don't hold my breath for hope.
But I can say I have more faith in the festival board than I do in the funding organisations. They've jumped big hoops to get where they are in such a short time. This is a new horizon for the scene and I'm glad someone has made the leap. I would have liked someone like Johnny Depp (Viper room), or Robert De Nero, or maybe even Adorno to choose the artists, but I would never have thought of these as even a possibility if it weren't for the MIJF securing Carlo.
I aggree with Kenny's observation of the parallels between the Wang and MIJ Festivals. I realise that AJ made programming decisions based on where he booked local musicians (i.e. if they were booked for MIJF, they probably weren't at Wang) in an effort to secure a difference between the events, but I disagree with this logic. The vision of the festivals must be different, and I'm glad that AJ can now focus his efforts on consolidating that vision for Wang. MIJF needs a different position, and they've secured one. Albeit this vision is new and as yet unteasted, I'm excited about the shift. New perspectives bring new ideas, and for me, that's what jazz is about, and evolution, not value-laden taste & ethical distinctions. I share some concerns (I have no idea who's on the short list for international acts, who's touring, how much they cost, nor do I care really how the money is spent. I trust in the board, between business men, promoters and Paul Grabowsky, not to mention that they actually got the funding on proposals that must have come to the approval of the bodies that gave them the money- it's their job to sleep soundly at night having spent it) but they don't touch the ryktor scale in comparison for the new roads they've managed to create. The conceptual thinking pros out weigh the Cons for me (pardon the pun).
And of what I saw of Carlo, the speech I heard him give at the awards, and the Aussi gigs he patronised all added to bonus for me. (Maybe not everyone in his enterage, but definately him). He's proud, modestly proud, and that's perfect. He will do his best, this is a great opportunity for him, and I think he is aware of that.
(an old Psychology quote just sprang to mind, "we see the world as we are, not as it is." Someone close to Freud I think, maybe Otto Rank). I would like to see this festival keep growing, and so I will think myself this festival to grow, I hope that made sense.
too many words again, soll.
tk