australian musical identity

[jazzonthestreetcom]

I'm not sure if you're familiar with my website www.jazzonthestreet.com ... but in any case that is one of the focuses of the website, ie to encourage jazz on the streets as well as in the institutions, encourage the musicians out their playing their originals and recording new stuff and being innovative composition wise.

[Kenny]

frustrated said:

The best Australian Jazz musicians have a thorough knowledge and respect for American music, even if they don't admit it.

To address your other points, sorry to sound glass half empty, I do intrinsically agree that aussies sound different, but NY muso's sure as fuck aren't copying us. (this is not to say I like that music more).

Oh, I agree entirely. But as already hinted on this thread, I suspect mostly we are talking - in terms of hardcore inspiration and influence - of music from earlier years. Many Australian musicians may keep up with younger, contemporary stuff, but more out of simple interest.

No I don't think US/NY players are copying our guys 'n' gals. Just that, on recorded evidence, it sometimes sounds like they do. I am thinking in particular of new/recent releases I have heard in the recent years on labels such as Fresh Sound Young Talent and so on.

[robburke]

Quote - ''Unfortunately there is not so much apprenticeship stuff going on, even in the states it seems. Learninn in a live situation with great players is the most immediate way to realise what needs to be learnt. Thats why its important to support live music, thats the breeding ground, not the Uni's.[/quote]

That's why you have Jamie Oehlers, Steve Magnusson, Dave Beck Alison Wedding, Tony Gould, Tony Floyd, Julian Wilson, Sam Keevers ECT... are teaching at a University. At Uni's there is curriculum that is hopefully addressing an individual sound directly and indirectly through stylistic, harmonic and rhythmic analysis. Taught and played by these musicians I think there is a bit of appentice stuff going on. Most of the public going to Jamie's gigs are students from the uni's - because of the learning and hanging out enviroment that Uni's produce.

[frustrated]

Many Australian musicians may keep up with younger, contemporary stuff, but more out of simple interest.

I disagree, and I think that was possibly my original point.
I tend to hear young musicians ONLy talking about the latest greatest thing to arrive from the states (as well as the latest Aus. stuff). There is plenty talk of Rosenwinkel, Potter, Steve Coleman, Mark Turner, Brad Mehldau, etc etc but if you say 'boy, I heard a great Duke Ellington record the other day", all you get is blank stares.

[Kenny]

frustrated said:

I disagree, and I think that was possibly my original point.
I tend to hear young musicians ONLy talking about the latest greatest thing to arrive from the states (as well as the latest Aus. stuff). There is plenty talk of Rosenwinkel, Potter, Steve Coleman, Mark Turner, Brad Mehldau, etc etc but if you say 'boy, I heard a great Duke Ellington record the other day", all you get is blank stares.

Hmmmm ... interesting. That runs directly against my conversations with many musicians over many years.

[donjor]

I recently received a CD from the International Trombone Association which was recorded at the International Trombone Festival in 2003. It contains performances by 9 American and US jazz players - a mixture of younger and older musos. Technically, they were all brilliant, and they got around the harmonies effortlessly. To my intense disappointment, as track succeeded track, I couldn't tell the difference between the players. I played it again - same thing. They all had similar sounds, licks, rhythmic approaches - you name it - and no individuality. I was shocked.

I know it sounds like "When I was a boy....", but think of Bill Harris, Tricky Sam Nanton, Vic Dickenson, Lawrence Brown, Bob Brookmeyer, Dicky Wells, J.J., Kai Winding, Jimmy Knepper, Willie Dennis - the list could go on and on (and that's only trombone players!). Two notes into the solo and you knew exactly who was playing.

I wonder why we have this situation. Is it because most current players learn(t) in a "Jamie Aebersold"-type situation, using the same materials, listening to 'contemporary' players and music, being taught by players who (because of globalisation of music, as well as everything else) have learnt in the same way? My understanding is that "when I was a boy(!)", band leaders chose their players (on the whole) because they didn't sound like anyone else. The whole point of playing jazz was to be yourself, and be more yourself as you got older. You were encouraged to mimic solos on records as a young player, but only as a means of learning the 'language' and as a springboard to finding your own sound and vocabulary. The listeners wanted to hear "different", not a clone of their current favourite player. Perhaps we should encourage young players not to attend colleges until they've found a voice of their own. Learn in your woodshed and listen to a range of music and players from the whole 20th century. Once you sound like no-one else, go to college to learn what you want to learn, asking the questions and not sitting waiting to be told.

I find this a serious problem in my enjoyment of jazz, and I think it lets down young players. Perhaps Rob and others could tell us whether they think about this in their teaching, and what they try to do to turn out individual-sounding players. Do they think it is working. On the evidence I quoted at the beginning, and from other listening, it doesn't seem to be.

[Kenny]

Good post!

I think the problems you cite are quite real.

But - and this is where the poster known as frustrated and I seem to part company - I feel that these days Australia's isolation has gone from being a minus to a grand plus.

I wouldn't claim that our players are immune from these sorts of global and collegiate trends, but by being so far removed geographically from the northern hemisphere jazz capitals enables to find their own voices.

Not all the time by any means, and the trends you outline do come into play here, but there's enough real personality going into the music to make it notable.

[robburke]

Great, some good points. I think there is heaps of individualisation in musicians - especially in this country. I have just recorded a CD with 5 well known Australian (Melbourne) guitarists because I thought it would be a good research angle. -Australian Identity.
Doug deVries
Steve Magnusson
Slava Gregorian
Geoff Hughes
Peter Petrucci

If you are familiar with the 5 guitarist's sound then it is interesting whether you can pick who is who.
I was talking to Nick Haywoods wife Nellie and she picked all the guitarist on the CD - . This says a lot about identity because she isn;t a muso and has only occassionally heard them play.
I believe that there is heaps of diversity in this country and that is one of the major attributes of the development and make-up of an Australian identity.

On the point of creating an identity - at Monash Uni we firstly try set high technical goals - ( the tech syllabus is really hard) - then have the goal of expressing you as an individual. Everything you do socially, culturally, technically, harmonically, rhythmically, aurally, verbally ect - all the things you listen to and experience in life make the player that you are. One needs the skill and language to express it but it ends up being an awareness of all these elements. When I grew up playing it was all about trying to make a musical difference - playing free music - pushing the supposed boudaries but in later years I have realised that it is about being true to oneself and expressing feelings and experiences - this made up with an interacting ensemble really makes music that is strong and meaningful.

[Vicki H B]

There IS an Aussie sound and identity I think, our improvised music is less constrained and more interesting, more eclectic and I can't spell check this cos I only have 3 mins left on my net card at this expensive Amsterdam netcafe. I miss Australia for lots of reasons, including the jazz.

[jazzonthestreet]

I think its hard to generalise, there are definately Aussie players with distict styles that should be encouraged...In a jazz on the street interview with Aaron Choulai, when asked why Tim Ries would be so impressed with him to get him over to New York to play some gigs and later record, Aaron responds "I think it was partly, because to him I would sound very different from a lot of New York pianist, cause if you grow up on the other side of the world that’s what’s gonna happen..." and when asked what he listened to as a youngerster he said..."when I was young I listened to a lot of Melbourne bands like the Hoodangers and Ish Ish, and I was really digging Jarrett and Bill Evans"...
I think its very imprtant to encourage the musician run institutions like Make It Up Club, Lebowskies and Half Bent, cause they put on young players right alongside more experienced players...please Aussie Council (or is Vic Arts?) give Half Bent their grant so they can continue!
I've just moved to Melbourne and am very excited to be here with all this exciting jazz activity going on that is very well supported by the institutions, but always a struggle with venues. The big issue in with me is the lack of strategy with respect to the music biz side of things, there really needs to be a lot more CDs sold here and abroad.

[jazzonthestreet]

by the way Vicky, when are you getting back?

[vicki hb not logged on]

Hey there JOTS

I leave tomorrow for my beautiful Melbourne, back next Tuesday. I am so so so so homesick. I loathe travelling for work. You work 16 hours per day, stay in cheap hotels, eat disgusting food and never get time to hear any decent live music. And then there is squeezing one's fat backside into economy. Lovely!

Well it could be worse, I could be in Iraq!

Havent hardly had time to visit OJF either! Miss you all OJFers.

Vicki

[BooBoo]

Hey why is this post listed as fresh when the last post was six months ago?

[isaacs]

BooBoo said:

Hey why is this post listed as fresh when the last post was six months ago?

because someone must have posted something and then deleted it and the system doesn't compensate properly