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Post by happy on Jul 29, 2005 12:22:18 GMT 10
Hey, I don't see anything in donj's post that is really having a go at Australian musicians, it sounds more like pride in the music that he knows and frustration that it isn't better known and appreciated, and amen to that.
I agree donj, it is very unfortuante that most of the music we get exposed to here is either our own or American - it's not just in the jazz scene, it happens all over the place. And with the cost of importing cds, it is hard to get familiar with many of the English musicians without a good budget and/or a good mentor! Let us hope that with the boom in on-line distribution, more of us will be better able to discover all sorts of great music that we haven't previously heard.
For my own part, I am often finacially limited to the 2nd hand stores, where I have been fortunate to pick up a few gems from the UK and Europe, but sadly they are few and far between (a little Surman, Evan Parker, Derek Bailey, Lol Coxhill, Vienna Art Orch, Han Bennink). Perhaps you could post a list of 20 essential recordings (and suggestions where they can be found!!!) - i realise you have largely done that already, but a pithy list could be just the ticket.
As far as 'composing', yes there are composers out there but many musicians struggle to have the time to rehearse a regular large ensemble. How people do it elsewhere I don't know, but here to be able to get together a band of more than half a dozen musicians for a series of (usually unpaid) rehearsals to present a concert is extremely challenging. Yes, people do it, but by god you have to want it to happen!
In addition to the names already mentioned in Melbourne I'd have to add Adrian Sherriff , Ronny Ferella, composer Kate Neal who does a lot of work with improvisors, Ren Walters, Phil Bywater, Niko Shauble. You would probably enjoy a lot of what the jazz fringe people have to offer, also the make it up club for the more improvised end of things
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Post by don jordan on Jul 29, 2005 16:48:05 GMT 10
Thanks, folks, for the great responses. No, I wasn't knocking Australian musos in any way, shape or form - please don't get the wrong idea. I'm not a knocker. The musicians name's I mentioned as those I've particularly liked were only given as examples, and certainly not as being superior to any local musos. I don't know about words like "sprawling" or "symphonic length" as used on some replies - sounds a little bit negative to me for extended compositions. I had the ABC and classical music in mind when I wrote about rarely hearing extended works in toto on radio, noting that they would never play just one movement of a symphony or one act of an opera (in other than exceptional circumstances). The '60s in London were a very formative time for me (I lived there for about six years), and I found heaps of emotional fulfilment and inspiration in the music I heard there. Many of the people I mentioned were fortunate that, when Ronny Scott's moved to new premises, he kept the Old Place and let all the young guys use it to develop and promote themselves and their music, right in the middle of Soho. This lasted quite a few years. A place to play that doesn't cost much to hire but allows people to come and listen in reasonable comfort is, I would say, what most musos are looking for, especially those who tread a non-commercial path. I remember hearing Paul Rutherford, Barry Guy and a drummer (whose name I can't remember right now) playing in a small upstairs room in a pub. I think there were 3 people there to listen! It was the best night of spontaneous music, though, and I didn't hear the musos complain. Personally, I'd go anywhere to play, and getting paid for it is a lucky bonus if it happens. However, I've always found it difficult to find other musos who feel the same way and this has become worse as I've become older. I've never been a full-time "professional" muso, so I haven't developed the attitudes that some have - understandably, because they've "been there and done that" and probably played a lot of music they don't particularly like. It's one reason I try to play with younger people - but they're often not easy to find because of the "generation gap". Another formative experience for me was studying for a year or more in the late '70s with Jim Fulkerson when he was "artist in residence" at the V.C.A. At his solo concerts I felt I heard the trombone being played in a way that was absolutely "true" to itself. Jim opened up a whole other world of music to me. I had the opportunity to follow that up (and should have - I've kicked myself ever since), but a lot of personal difficulties got in the way. I felt I needed a regular and predictable income to bring up a family on, and fled back to civil engineering where I remained for the rest of my "employable" years, playing music when and where I could. I didn't have the guts to ditch everyone and everything and be a "real" artist, following my inner promptings wherever they led. I wish I had. However, I made my decisions and I've had to live with them, for good or ill. By the way, my comment about needing to know the whole tradition came from Jim. He was extremely grateful for the thorough grounding in classical and modern music that he received in the U.S., and thought it absolutely essential to his ability to develop as player and composer. Of course one can't have heard "absolutely everybody and everything", but I think that can be used as an excuse for not trying to. Curiosity and persistence are crucial, I think, to growth and maturity. There is more music on the earth than anyone can possibly imagine, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to hear it all and learn as much about it as we can. Why would you not? I didn't try to hide my identity when I chose the user name for the site. I didn't realise it would be used on posts instead of my full name, which is Don Jordan. Some of you may have heard my (occasional) bands "Swing 'n' Jazz", "Lazybones" and "Milestones". These are unashamedly what the Yanks call "repertory" bands, as I haven't felt that I have the inspiration or skill to compose, although I've done a lot of transcriptions and some arranging. However, I'm not ashamed of that. Classical musicians can play Bach and Beethoven without being thought any less of, so why not jazz musos who play Basie, Ellington, J.J. Johnson, Kai Winding and Jazz Messengers compositions and arrangements? Some solos are so perfect that I think they deserve to be heard again, too. I extend or alter pieces as I think necessary and, of course, the solos are mostly improvised and original, so there need be no lack of freshness in the music. It's all about attitude and enthusiasm and loving the music. One of the reasons I followed this path is because I wanted to share the rare beauty I found in music with other people - and what better way than to play it to them live? After hearing J and K's arrangements of "Israel", "Georgia" and "Just for a thrill", for instance, I couldn't rest until I'd transcribed and played them. The "Lazybones" book is full of that stuff and I'd love to be playing it again. Lack of confidence has always been my worst bugbear, and I'm pretty good at shooting myself in the foot. I guess you know yourself better as you age, and that's all you can hope for! I've been a reasonably good player, but only a modest improviser (at best). However, I've always been really pleased at the number of good musos who have been willing to join me in the bands. I try and give them lots of opportunities to solo. One of their commonly expressed reasons for doing so is because of the good compositions and arrangements! Back to where I came in. Thank you to all those who mentioned local players, CDs and venues that I could hear. I am obviously familiar with some already, and appreciate them very much. However, I'm long past delighting in endless blowing sessions. I need more substance and compositional craft in live performance to nourish my inner self now. I'm happy to contribute more to this thread and others, but I find I need to take my time and think before I write, so don't be put off if I don't put in immediately. Marg and I have lived in Mount Martha (an hour and a bit's drive from Melbourne) for the past 4 years. I hoped that would not diminish my attendance at gigs or my playing, but it has. However, another period of attending to other priorities is coming to an end, and I will be getting the horn out again and gearing up to get the chops together. I am reminded of Bob Brookmeyer's reply to the journalist who asked what it was like to play the trombone - said Bob, "It's cold in the morning and it hurts at night"!  |
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Post by Kenny on Jul 29, 2005 16:53:56 GMT 10
Thanks for getting back to us, donj.
Who are you talking about? Of the Australian names dropped in this thread, I can't think of any for whom the term "blowing session" is a natural fit.
Understood.
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Post by don jordan on Jul 30, 2005 12:13:49 GMT 10
To Mark: Thanks for your encouragement. I appreciate it very much. I will look at the Wangaratta site a.s.a.p.
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Post by don jordan on Jul 30, 2005 12:24:40 GMT 10
To march: I'm sorry about my "wording of things". One of the great difficulties I find with writing things down is that the reader can put interpretations (and such things as imagined tones of voice if the writer was speaking) on it that do not occur to me. I'm not looking for identical correspondence between Oz musos and o/s ones - that would be silly. I tried (apparently quite inadequately) to describe the sort of feelings I have about music and, so as to be specific and not vague, to name some of the musicians and composers who have evoked those for me. I'm not putting down Oz musos - I have heard some transcendental performances and recordings from peole like Tony Gould and Brian Brown - I even still remember a performance at one of the long-missed "Downbeat" concerts at the Melbourne Town Hall of "Somewhere over the rainbow" played by John Hawker and Graeme Lyall (very, very young) that shook me to the core. I'm a positive person. Please don't mistake me.
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Post by don jordan on Jul 30, 2005 12:34:30 GMT 10
To Mark and march: I don't think there's a lack of big band traditions in Oz. Certainly not in Melbourne. I mentioned John Hawker's big band in around 1960 (in which, BTW, Bob Barnard played 3rd or 4th trumpet to develop himself in that area) and they played very up-to-date music! I haven't heard anyone in Melbourne use strings, piano-accordion, bass clarinet, tuba or oboe, for instance (which, march, doesn't mean that I'm asserting that no-one does!). Why not? And if one should feel there's no tradition of large ensemble performance in Oz, then why not start one? I feel sad about what I think might be an inward-looking and defeatist attitude. There are some musical ideas that need a large ensemble to express, and I can't imagine that lots of Oz musos don't have such ideas.
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Post by isaacs on Jul 30, 2005 21:10:49 GMT 10
"There is more music on the earth than anyone can possibly imagine, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to hear it all and learn as much about it as we can. Why would you not?"
I myself have never struggled to be really and truly deeply well read, whether in classical music or jazz or any other tradition. Though I do know a lot of music. I couldn't create without the music and musicans who have inspired me and taught me a language. But they (and many of them are not famous, or not world-famous anyway) have in a sense beaten a path to my door with their music or so it feels like to me. I could not help but find them. One thing I often think about is this business of being able to access any music that has been created on the planet (and feeling you ought to because you can) is a very, very new thing, maybe the last 50-70 years, through LPs, then CDs and now accelerated by the internet. Before that - people heard the music immediately around them in their town, heard those musicians who travelled through and those they could hear when they themselves travelled, obviously generally not widely. Or they studied scores, again much, much harder to come by. Yet genius artists emerged who by TODAY'S standards must have heard or studied very little music. I am not too worried about the "whole tradition" and these days people mean all traditions on the planet. I can't speak authoritively on Korean music and I don't really know many of Zoot Sim's records. But I don't feel my first task is to rectify those things. To take it further, sometimes I want to keep music OUT godammit, to hear as little as possible, so I can try and get a handle on what I want to say (which may be that I don't want to say anything just now). Maybe I'll start a thread "What I'm NOT listening to".
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Post by march on Jul 30, 2005 21:51:21 GMT 10
Mark: Andrew Hill went about 3 years without listening to ANY music! Now there's committment to finding your own way to it......
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Post by Kenny on Jul 30, 2005 21:58:07 GMT 10
&One thing I often think about is this business of being able to access any music that has been created on the planet (and feeling you ought to because you can) is a very, very new thing, maybe the last 50-70 years, through LPs, then CDs and now accelerated by the internet. Yes! Not just in the jazz world, but right across all sorts of styles, I am always a little surprised that so many people have so little interest in music from other eras. Especially when so much of it can be had so easily, sounding so freaking fine and quite affordably. When I play Milton Brown from the '30s or Jelly Roll or Charlie Poole or whatever, all I can do is marvel. In this regard, as Mark points out, we are completely unlike previous generations from earlier centuries. And not only do we have the pleasure as listeners and fans of hearing the past, but recordings themselves have been vital in forging everything from jazz and blues through to rock and country and beyond. Wow! I feel like it is a rare honour. For me, popular music is a century old and I have no hesitation about being a slut in my feasting! |
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Post by don jordan on Jul 31, 2005 14:17:42 GMT 10
To belindblah (moody?): Thanks a lot for your welcome to this site. I'd love to have a talk with you sometime. How could that be arranged?
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Post by don jordan on Jul 31, 2005 14:27:53 GMT 10
To kenny: Thank you for your enthusiasm and warm reception. If you would like to use any of the records I own on your shows, I would be only too happy to lend them to you. I would also enjoy having a chat with you in person some time - might this be possible? I find thinking and writing to be fairly inseparable so sometimes (quite often I suspect) things don't come out in the way I'd hoped. I need the feedback to help get the thoughts in better shape. Add this to the problems arising from the reader's interpretation of the written word and I wonder that successful communication ever takes place!
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Post by don jordan on Jul 31, 2005 14:31:37 GMT 10
To all: Thank you for the musos, CDs, venues, etc. you have advised me of. I will be on the lookout for opportunities to visit and hear them. BTW I have heard a reasonable number of the musos mentioned, but probably not recently. Listening to the radio is a lottery, too, because I can only manage to catch the occasional program, I'm afraid. This is not fair on the presenters who, I'm sure, try to make their sequence of programs comprehensive and interesting. Were one able to listen consistently, I'm sure one would be better informed and more up-to-date.
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Post by don jordan on Jul 31, 2005 14:42:16 GMT 10
To mark: Thanks for your response. I don't think that people have a "duty" (if you like) to inform themselves more than they want to. I just wanted to say that the opportunities to be curious and find out about music in other places, and about other musics, are all around. Some people are curious, others not so much. That's OK. I understand what you mean by saying that people and music have, as it were, found you. But I do think you have to be open to new experiences for that to happen. I find as I get older that I'd rather have silence on many occasions than to listen to anything. How else can you become aware of what's inside you waiting (hoping?) to get out? Maybe, too, we can only cope with a certain number of important influences in our lives and then our brains decide who we are and what we know, and we have to work with that. Perhaps that's maturity!
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Post by don jordan on Aug 2, 2005 21:31:46 GMT 10
Have I been abandoned??!! Kenny was a bit puzzled early on as to why I had posted as I had. As I mentioned, my brain works slowly and in strange ways. I have just realised that what I was really trying to say was not, "Where are the people who are writing and playing the sort of music I'd like to hear?" but "I want to write and play the sort of music I'd like to hear, and I'm looking for musos who might be willing to join me in doing that"! Makes quite a bit of difference, I think.
One possibility would be to meet weekly, perhaps on a Tuesday night, perhaps in an upstairs room at a pub, perhaps somewhere like Caulfield, with the intention of workshopping people's compositions and ideas and gradually getting to know each other musically. Eventually a performing unit might develop. I would hope for a long-term commitment so that something really worthwhile would develop. This should not be expected to result in paid gigs!! Should opportunities for this arise, they will do so as a result of the pursuit of musical goals and coming up with something that listeners are attracted to.
I want to work with people who are in it for the music, and who just want to play and "compose" (whatever that means). When I had a reasonably-paying day job, I managed to subsidise my bands to some extent. I have depped with some wonderful Melbourne bands and have been shocked that some of the best jazz players I know were willing to work for $20 a night, just so they could play. I think this is wrong, but I don't know what can be done about it. I can't afford to subsidise anyone any more, so this has to be an affair of the heart. Of course I'd like to earn some money from the music, and if it comes that will be great. But for now, I'd like to find people who are passionate about music, come what may.
If these "Composing Workshop" sessions are made open to listeners, that could help in building a following. I would have in mind that this would be a co-operative venture with no "leader" as such. I would want a non-competitive atmosphere in which we could create music of depth and drama that will move listeners deeply. The "music" could cover as wide a field as that label allows - after all, what is jazz but the sound of surprise?
Is there anyone in Melbourne tuning in to this site who would like to do this, or who might know someone who would? Please let me know what you think.
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