Melbourne Jazz Fringe Festival

[punter]

But how about the Melb Jazz Festival eh... 'budget expectations'
How can it be that you book a whole program, advertise it, then cancel some of the main acts to 'meet budget expectations'? I mean what gives there? Surely those artists would have been contracted long ago so the festival would still have to pay them, so how would their cancellation help you with the budget? Man that Albare is such a dodgy chancer...

[ironguts]

Very good point punter. I guess they'll pay the locals even less now, to meet budget expectations. God, I reckon many should give up music,,, to meet budget expectations.
It's a great excuse for anything actually. Can't take the kids to the movies,,,, Can't take you out to dinner,,,,, Have to go to the pub,,,,

[aj]

Have to play golf / poker........due to budget expectations.

[captain]

Ok, so I should read the article before dissing it for sure, but bottom line, there are many more opinions/ideas I would listen to first.

I find it interesting that we all automatically place the onus on the government to pay for this stuff.

I've always been a bit skeptical of the so called 'European Model' and the reliance on more socialist governments, The reason we all play the music we play is because of the influence (for the most part, don't take this as a blanket statement) of American music. Everything that comes from there is a product of hard-core capitalism, and whoever it is who originally inspired us to take up Jazz (Be it Coltrane, Miles, Elvis, James Brown WHOEVER) and other music beyond that forged their career in the free market.

We should learn more about how that system works and use the knowledge to get our music out there. Don't rely on governments, rely on yourself.

That all said, I also believe Oz is a very special case because of our size and location geographically. Most rock and pop acts wouldn't exist without some form of grants too, and even having mainstream success in the so called local music 'industry' does not guarantee financial security. If there were 300 million Australians there'd be alot more ways to make a living in music.

[captain]

I learned alot about music industry by reading the several books by and about Frank Zappa. He was kind of an uber-capitalist muso, to the point where he was accused of exploiting his 'Workers' (band members, staff etc). He started dozens of companies to achieve what he wanted, and poured any money he made back in to his own interests.

[gator]

captain said:

I find it interesting that we all automatically place the onus on the government to pay for this stuff.

I've always been a bit skeptical of the so called 'European Model' and the reliance on more socialist governments,

Absolutely.Which is why the idea of a "National Plan" ; terminology which oozes central control and a beauracracy to go with it gets me going... But I should shut up and read the book...

[isaacs]

gh said:

But I should shut up and read the book...

In the meantime we can read an edited extract from Peter Rechniewski's book published in today's The Australian online at www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23501197-16947,00.html

(copy & paste URL, can't get all of it to hyperlink for some reason)

[aj]

captain said:

I learned alot about music industry by reading the several books by and about Frank Zappa. He was kind of an uber-capitalist muso, to the point where he was accused of exploiting his 'Workers' (band members, staff etc). He started dozens of companies to achieve what he wanted, and poured any money he made back in to his own interests.

True..much the same as Ellington did.

[captain]

Yes, many similarities with Zappa and Duke, also Miles, who had his fingers in all sorts of Pies other than music.

We seem to lack some of that entrepreneurial spirit in this country. (For better or for worse).

[ironguts]

You know I read the snippet and there is so much bullshit with this word Jazz.

"Non-jazz improvisation, on the other hand, offers many of the possibilities that staunch supporters of the jazz tradition have rejected: the use of electronics and computers, multimedia performances and so on."

With this attitude Jazz is dead and should be relegated to the Museum (I'm not saying this is PR's view) These grand plans may be well and good but how can you support "Jazz" without some guidelines as to what it is supposed to be?

To be honest I see no reason that there should be money put towards musicians having a club where they can play Oleo, at least in a bebop setting, unless I guess it's a Jam type situation set up to let students explore the more standard Jazz vernacular, but this should maybe be more a role of the Uni?

I believe the aim should be more to support contemporary improvised music. Fuck Jazz. Do I play Jazz? Can you say my Trio is more Jazz than say my Solo stuff? I play it with the same spirit and same intention of expression, and skill base. Are the Necks Jazz? The AAO?

A VERY well known pianist here (no not Grabba) once said to me he didn't really dig Kenny Wheeler because he wasn't Jazz enough. Fair enough I think, but does that mean someone like Kenny shouldn't get the support because he's only 40% Jazz?

John Rodgers was mentioned in the article, he knows so little about the history of Jazz and cant 'swing' for shit, but he is one of the most accomplished improvisers (and composers) this country has. What does this say? Music has gone beyond the Jazz term. The aspect of Brazilian (Barney) or New Guinean (Aaron Choulai) or Pacific Islands (Aron Ottignon) , but if they're playing that style then why is it Jazz?? Minimalist influence in the Necks and 5 Names yes, but why then call it Jazz?

This is maybe all just semantics but I believe we need to free the terms up. It was put forward in the snippet that PG and others avoid association with the term Jazz? So why push the term then. SIMA is not SJMA, though,,, no I wont go there. Now Jazz Groove? Terrible name, doing great things though, but the name wreaks of daggy out of dates sad ass music to me. Yeah man, dig the groove of that hip Jazz beat man,,,,,,,,

The term Jazz frightens more people off than it brings, so so many times I've heard people say "I don't like Jazz but I really loved what you guys did". I'm not going to tell them it was Jazz because then they might go see some more and go " Oh christ, I was right, I don't like Jazz"

Sorry, I've been playing commercial TV stuff all day and my brain is fried. The Jazzy bit on there was a Micheal Buble big band version of a Beatles tune, now that was Jazz. I listened to Sun Ship on the way home to clear my head, that's not Jazz, that's high art and very deep communication.

[gator]

Yes - ok -I haven't read the whole thing yet! But I read the excerpt and Im already on edge.
I was musing before about the importance of original ideas - Ok heres some stream of consciousness....not entirely original-but then,what is?

One of the most radical is the idea that if governments fund music(and I agree with PR about the inequity in public funding here) then it should be music that reaches out beyond the commercial arena or the popular genre and it should be a rarified and special thing - and it should be of a non pre-determined genre..ie pre-composed, improvised, electronically generated, whatever. There should always be room and some support for musicians who consciously are active at the margins.

The sooner there is a change in focus away from blowing millions on Opera and Symphony orchestras and a move toward supporting high level music making of any genre, the more likely we will see a cultural shift that might see it possible for a mainstream improvisor (for instance) to make a decent living by performing.

Perhaps PR believes that there is an audience untapped out there , ready to consume music under the heading of jazz in a more conservative publicly funded and 'classical' paradigm- but I agree with Guts, If you institutionalize all improvised music under a big umbrella of "jazz' in this country - i think you will further marginalize even the more accessible forms of it. It may, for purposes of education (and thats a whole other,but deeply connected issue as far as I'm concerned) be a good idea to support some programmes that feature historical music, but I really feel that this fetish with music from the past is the biggest obstacle, regardless of its style or origin, to music making. It can and will exist, in the mainstream because you will always have ..grrrr -the nostalgic element in the community.I'm not villifying the music itself - and I dont want to see it 'not performed' but I'm concerned about the obsession with style and the dualities created between composed and improvised music that keeps one rich and static and the other poor and progressive.

Shaggaz made the excellent point before that we should be looking at how to make people more receptive to improvising - and the fascinating musics that grow out of improvised ventures. This is surely worthy of support - on merit just as a new work for chamber orchestra is -on its merit. But the central idea that people strive to create an environment for their own music independently is also important - if it was a level playing field then you would have a greater diversity of music in the community, and a much healthier musical ecology.

But its not level, nowhere near it. We are worse off in Australia than in Europe, because at least over there, there is a cultural acknowledgement of improvisation as a fundamental element, if not in the future of classical music, certainly in its history. Here, Im afraid, the majority of our classical friends and their supporters are arch conservatives who just dont get it -at all. Its an AMEB mentality that goes to the top.

Perhaps a better vision is for improvisers and progressive, original performers/thinkers from the modern classical paradigm to combine their energies and make a compelling case for the dismantling of these ultra conservative paradigms of funding institutions , and look toward the support of music education that is actually worthwhile(particularly in High schools) and the support of original music - from artists striving on the edges - if we try to define our edges-we might define our mainstream a bit better too -I dont know.
What ya all think?

[vickibonet]

In response to Guts post: if you can't swing and you claim to play jazz, someone should shoot you. Please. In fact just pass me the gun.

Guts you're not doing that Channel 7 gig are you?

[ironguts]

For the record, I never said Rogers thought he played jazz, he couldn't give a fuck about such an idea, that's just not how he plays. I also didn't say if you can't swing you can't play jazz though it may well be a fair comment, but then can you define swing? Truth be known, he does swing to my ears but not in a classic Jazz way.

Mm, yes, it takes 2, make hay while the sun shines dear. Actually it's fun, well paid and easy, the band is good the sound is good they feed you. I even played a ,,,,,, flugel horn last night, ok, bring it on.

Gator, well said, I wish I was smart like you, you rite so cleaver! Can't wait to hear what you think of the whole book. Maybe you could read it to me?

[gator]

sure Guts -but you'll have to wait for bedtime while your'e cuddling your Porn Horn..

[punter]

I agree with the reservations about the word 'jazz' but it's tricky... what do you call all of this music that guts mentions. My view is that we just claim the word and redefine it. Still, having the word 'jazz' in the Jazz Fringe Festival or Jazz Groove still does stick with me a bit because it seems that the music that is represented by both these organisations is moving further away from idiomatic jazz, but what would you replace it with? 'Creative Music'? 'Contemporary Improvised Music'?
As for funding... I think there is a bit of a case for developing national audiences for Creative Improvised Contemporary Music... OK jazz... In Canada, which has some similarities to Australia in terms of geography and population, they have an integrated national approach and it's a helluva lot easier there to get touring happening.
As for capitalism... don't forget that record companies actually had money that they could give Miles. And since when was accessing government funding NOT entrepreneurial? Most businesses would get nowhere without it. We just need to get better at lobbying for how funding is distributed... the percentage that goes to original, creative Australian is depressingly small. So much goes to orchestras and opera companies flogging the European classical canon. It's totally fucked up