ORIGINAL VOICE

[KJ]

from Keith Jarrett article in Musician magazine, March, 1996:

"In the early 60's, when I was a teenager, the following jazz players (in no particular order) were all
actively creative and all completely different from each other: Miles Davis, Gerry Mulligan, Lee Konitz,
Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, Wynton Kelly,Sonny Rollins, Coleman
Hawkins, Sun Ra,Archie Shepp, Albert Ayler, Phil Woods, Paul Bley, Gary Peacock, Jack Dejohnette,
Herbic Hancock, Tony Williams, Jaki Byard, Charles Mingus, Charlie Haden, Ed Blackwell, Don
Cherry, Percy Heath, Wayne Shorter, Jimmy Giuffre, Stan Getz,Pete LaRoca, Max Roach, Paul Motian,
Art Pepper, Chet Baker, Lennie Tristano, George Russell, Cannonball Adderley, Lee
Morgan, Freddie Hubbard,Paul Chambers, Art Taylor, Ahmad Jamal, Bob
Brookmeyer, Mel Lewis, Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, Duke Ellington,
Thelonious Monk, Randy Weston, Jimmy Garrison, McCoy Tvner, Elvin Jones, Cecil McBee, Ron
Carter, Jimmy Cobb, Dollar Brand, Roswell Rudd, Beaver Harris, Art Farmer, Jim Hill, Steve Kuhn,
Steve Swallow, Hampton Hawes, Sunny Murray, Warne Marsh, Dave Izenson, Bud Powell, John
Lewis, J.J. Johnson, Dizzy Gillespie, Pharoah Sandors, Andrew Hill, Eric
Dolphy, Sam Rivers, Sam Brown, Milford Graves, Lowell Davidson, Milt Jackson, Joe Chambers,
Pepper Adams, Reggie Johnson, Jimmy Knepper, Johnny Coles, Blue Mitchell, Booker Little, Herb
Pomeroy, Henry Grimes, Red Mitchell, Carla Bley, Jim Pepper, Roscoe Mitchell, Lester Bowie, Ran
Blake, Jimmy Lyons, Alan Shorter, Ralph Towner, Glen Moore, Dave Holland, Lois Hayes, Vernell
Fournier, Connie Kay, Billy Higgins, Horace Silver, Kenny Dorham, Eddie Gomez, Jimmie Woods,
Shelley Manne, Israel Crosby, Hank Mobley, Red Garland, Gene Stone, Bobby Timmons, Albert
Stinson, Eddie Marshall, Victor Feldman, Roy Haynes, Harold Land, Giuseppe Logan, Billy Hart, Leroy
Vinegar, Mal Waldron, Philly Joe Jones, Paul Desomond, Steve Lacy and many more.

I would guess that about 30 of these names could have claimed ascendency to the jazz throne more
legitimately than Wynton Marsalis. The incredible breadth of musical styles represented by these names
means that jazz was what it was supposed to be: a melting pot of truly original voices. Of course, in an age
of insane fascination with technical achievement (never mind to what goal), elevating a mere technician to
godhead is, finally, possible and, hey, why not? But don't call it genius....



Jazz is probably the only art form whose existence depends on resistance to theories....If someone is an
expert on jazz, you can be pretty sure he/she is not a vital jazz musician...."

[Keith]

Apart from me of course!

[isaacs]

Very good "Keith"! A contradiction that is easily overlooked!

A vital jazz musicians giving an expert opinion about jazz, the opinion being that those that give expert opinions about jazz are not vital jazz musicians.

But (and here comes the strange logical loop bit)...

If Keith is right, he himself is either (1) a vital jazz musician or (2) an expert on jazz. He can't be both. Let's discount that he is not a vital jazz musician, an indefensible position. So by Keith's own logic he is not an expert on jazz.

BUT!!!!!!

If he is not an expert on jazz then his expert opinion about jazz is not to be trusted.

Therefore his own opinion leads to the conclusion that his opinion is wrong. If he is wrong, then you CAN be both a vital jazz musician AND an expert on jazz.

So then Keith's opinion could be correct.

But if it's correct, then his opinion is wrong (this arises because it is an opinion ABOUT opinions).

These logical strange loops of self-reference were explored by Douglas Hofstadter in his book "Godel Escher Bach" (the Keith one is only a strange loop if you take as given that Keith is "a vital jazz musician" which clearly we must).

The classic "strange loop" is "I always lie".

ergo

In that case the foregoing statement is a lie.

Therefore you always tell the truth.

But if you always tell the truth then "I always tell a lie" must be true.

So it's a lie.
And so it's true.
And so it's a lie
etc
etc
ad infinitum

[punter]

but he is not claiming to be an expert. kj is just stating an opinion then leaving it up to us to decide whether he is an expert or not. if we all agree he is an expert, based on the opinions expressed in the piece you posted, and we agree he is a vital player, then it is possible to be both. kj is saying that if someone CLAIMS to be an expert then he/she is in all probablity not a vital player.
i think he is an expert... he nails it with: "insane fascination with technical achievement (never mind to what goal)"
in no other artform is technical virtuosity an end in itself or a claim to much at all. imagine an exhibition of an artist who was an excellent drawer. people would say, "and?". it's not enough to elevate craft into the realm of art and in other areas of artistic endeavour this is recognised, in music it is too often everlooked.
go keith!

[isaacs]

Punter I disagree (and this is just for the sake of savouring the delicious logical ironies not because I disagree with Keith's opinions).

Keith says "If someone is an expert on jazz, you can be pretty sure he/she is not a vital jazz musician...."

So the trigger is not at all CLAIMING to be an expert as you suggest. It is BEING an expert. "If someone IS an expert on jazz, you can be pretty sure he/she is not a vital jazz musician...." [upper case mine].

Quite simply Keith is in the first place actually saying he is NOT an expert on jazz (because clearly he is a vital jazz musician). Ergo, his opinions (whether about jazz experts or anything else) are not to be trusted.

But, if they are not to be trusted in the first place then he could be wrong about them not being able to be trusted.

So they could be trusted.
Which means they can't be.
Which means they can be.
Which means they can't be
etc
etc
ad infinitum

[go and practice]

Get to work both of you!
Keith is practicing Bach as you guys circle this maze

[isaacs]

go said:

Keith is practicing Bach as you guys circle this maze

Everything is The Work

[tinky]

I like the idea that Jazz depends on resistance to theories. Terms like parralellism (can't spell it) etc come to mind. When I listen to Wynton I hear theories coming out his arse, mind you he's on top of them, but that bores me. Wynton does however have a technique that I'm in awe of, still thats me caught in a fascination with his technical ability, I'd rather hear Stanko ( not to say Stanko doesn't have technique).
Of course the other side is that KJ has an astounding technique that few could hope to achieve. Does that put him in the same bag as Wynton?
I guess that KJ is really just saying that Wynton is all technique and theories and no genius, but KJ is all.

[tuggsey]

I also think that alot of people put more stock in what some musicians say - as opposed to what they play- I have heard great musicians here and elsewhere whose playing is at odds with their own theories....thank god!!
I find that really interesting - it sometimes shows that someone is more interested in advancing or changing their playing perspective than continually justifying it verbally - that their ideals are ahead of where they are playing.Miles was always wonderfully contradictory. Wynton bores me because hes armour-plated in that regard - technical facility or not...and I think in the States , that the teaching institutions continually call upon big names to prop up the dictums of mainstream jazz pedagogy.....for want of a better word....
I think KJ has a point about the work - it is a deep dark journey ..for some at least..
somewhere in there the idea that there is path that one needs to walk alone gets lost. probably because it doesnt sell books or CD's.

[Mr Jazz]

At the same time Wynton doesn't have the ego to publicly criticise his colleagues. When asked to respond to Keith's damning letter to the NY TImes, he said "How can I respond to something that is clearly irrational?"

Keith is a whiny little bitch who makes beautiful music

[vickihb2]

admin said:

go said:

Keith is practicing Bach as you guys circle this maze

Everything is The Work

That is SO true Mark. I'm so glad you said it. Making great art is so much more than practice. How can you have express anything if you've done little else but sleep and practice 12 hours per day?

[vickihb2]

Mr said:

At the same time Wynton doesn't have the ego to publicly criticise his colleagues. When asked to respond to Keith's damning letter to the NY TImes, he said "How can I respond to something that is clearly irrational?"

Keith is a whiny little bitch who makes beautiful music

Loads of "whiny little bitches" make great music/art.

Get to know anyone well enough, who is the slightest bit interesting and they turn out to be crazy. More often than not the more talented they are the more impossible too.

So you have a choice: either never get to know your heroes or accept it as inevitable and get on with your work.

C'est la vie.