Bad Sax Sucks

[jamie]

Agreed Vicki. The first thing I tell my new students is that there are 500 or more standards that you'll come across regularly in the world of "earning a living as a jazz musician", so get learning fast. Fact is, there are a lot of players who can make some really interesting noises on their horns, but can't string a melodic line together to save there lives. Standards are the building blocks for learning chord structures, melodic development and form, and should have a high priority in the practice schedules of developing players. Playing "what you feel" should be the outcome of many hours working on, and developing, harmonic, melodic and rhythmic concepts - not the starting point in a players progression.

[tinky]

What on earth are they teaching them at the VCA these days anyway?

Well Vicki, I think its more what are kids practising. Like Jamie said we tell them what they need but that doesn't mean they'll do it. I see a lot of younger players with a weak harmonic understanding, and its not Just knowing standards either, but rather the key centres. Learning standards helps but there is still more to it. Great players that know the language can play tunes they don't know because they know the language. The rhythmic stuff is the same, there's plenty of good harmonic players that have very basic rhythmic ideas, there is so much to learn that it is good to see players out trying, but as you say Vicki, when there is paying costomers, it may not be the time.
I admit to having a limited standards repertois myself, and when I play the ones I know I get accused of not knowing the changes. The truth is I only like to know the chords so that I know what I'm ignoring!

[shaggaz]

Yeah, I think a lot of younger players (may i be so bold as to include myself) have a very weak understanding of harmony, but the standards thing was an interesting point for me. Standards seem like only part of the equation and I probably know less of them than Tinkler. But how many regular standards gigs have you seen with a trombone player fronting the band? Learning music encompasses so many styles that I find it hard to find time to practise things that aren't related to the music I'm currently performing. I learn a lot about harmony and rhythm from playing Tamara's Murphy's tunes and Nash Lee's tunes.
I understand Vicki's point about paying customers and the like, but it sounds like two different arguments to me. One, people shouldn't sit for a whole set if they don't know the stuff. Two, young people aren't learning harmony.
Different things.

[barbara1]

Is there a time when sax doesn't suck?

[barbara1]

Hey there's an ad at the top of this website for kids pot. That is disgraceful, we shouldn't be pushing this on the youth of Australia

[Kenny]

Yeah, maybe making freely available would be better than pushing.

[betty]

Saxaphones dont suck! some sax players suck!

[tuggsey]

What are they learning at VCA ? - if you want to see the curriculum Vicki you can drop in any time and check it out - bearing in mind a few things.


Australia is one of the few places in the world that has music as a University subject with university time frames on learning - ie three years to do a bachelor - regardless of whether you are trying to master the trumpet or a degree in business admin. - ridiculous.

To be honest -you cant blame a student for questioning the validity of tin pan alley in this day and age -it takes a student with special powers of maturity to separate the tenets of style from just making music...what exists in the current environment to remind them that Standards matter? certainly not gigs or the music on the street - Teachers can, but you have to then relate to other music as well if you adopt that principle, such as Asian music or Western Classical music - where does it end?My own feeling is that Standards can instil knowledge of form,harmony, and development if they are learnt well - some standards are really great tunes too - you need to hear that in the universal standard of great improvisors - so listening to the tradition is important too - only thing is , that each generation of musician who comes along has that much more music to get a handle on than the last generation.

[tuggsey]

As for the Real Book - the old ones were just plain wrong in many cases - the new ones are expensive - and students might think that having one means they dont need to transcribe the tune from Bird , Miles or Bill Evans or Frank Sinatra. Real books are just another form of merchandise - Jazz is an aural tradition.

[tinky]

They're lucky to have you thats for sure Tuggsey, well said.

[antboy]

shaggaz has made some good points here,
sure if your going to play at DIZZY's in a band playing standards; maybe you might want to learn the tunes! no doubt!
but for most of the younger players that I know of in Melbourne that are doing something interesting, probably very few of them know many standards at all! and to me that is a positive thing!
As others have said here, lots can be learnt by playing standards, and in many musics harmonic knowledge will greatly UP the chance of you doing something interesting, and standards is a great way of achieving some of that knowledge, sure, but I also know way too many musicians who use the line of "when I will get on top of all these standards then l'll be ready to start doing my own thing..."
but how relevant is learning standard after standard to a lot of people's music? how relevant is this attitude of "paying dues" going to be to your music? maybe you'll have more to UNLEARN by trying to get rid of cliche after cliche and sounding like everyone else...
It is more a matter of musical priorities than anything else,
shaggaz said about having the time to work on what is relevant in her musical life at the moment, ie: NOW! that makes sense...
l'm really really glad bands ( and the players in these bands ) like VADA ( are you guys still going? ) and 12 tone diamonds aren't so much in this direction...when l was 16 and starting to go out to gigs nearly everyone in the jazz scene was wearing suits, berets and playing Horace Silver tunes! I was happy to be corrupted by the likes of Julien Wilson, Tim Pledger, Phil Bywater, Ren Walters, Mark Simmonds etc...
I guess this turns more to a question of what is jazz ( god forbid this old argument ) but people looking forward doing their own thing have always seemed to me much more jazz than horace silver in 2006!

[mim]

antboy said:

maybe you'll have more to UNLEARN by trying to get rid of cliche after cliche and sounding like everyone else...

I don't think you can ever have too much information and history. I don't think it's a question of having to unlearn cliches. It's like martial arts, you learn it so you need not ever use it. Well, not exactly, but there are so many things I want to be able to do, I don't necessarily want to do them. If you don't learn cliches, how do you know when you're using one?

[alison]

Where has all this negativity come from concerning Jazz standard repertoire? It is a mystery to me... does it come from the fact that people are forced to learn these songs in a school environment and then assessed on the material, and therefore feel imprisoned by it? I primarily sing my original material these days, but I love a GOOD song, no matter who wrote it or when it was written or who has played it in the past... I just did a gig last night of primarily standards with some incredible musicians (who don't always play standards) and it was one of the most rewarding gigs I have done in a while (because i got to play with such lovely musicians AND because I sang some standards that I have recently re-learned or sort of fell in love with again AND the crowd was very receptive, which always helps). I understand if some people choose to not sing/play standards ( I even hate that word "standard"), but SOME of those songs are BE-A-U-TI-FUL and what's the harm in exploring beautiful songs? Why put a bad name or vibe out there about "Autumn Leaves" when Eva Cassidy sang one of the most beautiful emotional renditions of that song I have EVER heard (if you haven't heard it, please do yourself a favour and check it out!!!!).
Also, I think that learning these "standard" tunes over the years has helped me in my compositions (which encompass all sorts of styles, including jazz) both harmonically and melodically.

[Kenny]

Is "Happy Birthday" a standard?

[aj]

Must be.......I've certainly heard it too many times.