Creative Music

[tinky]

A recent comment was made by Greg Osby that he thought there didn't appear to be a very large creative music scene in Aus. I guess its hard to expect any scene in a country this size to be large, and I really don't care what a the opinion is of someone who I find to have little creativity in their music, but, I'm curious as to what people round here think is creativity in music.

[geofhughes]

My kids improvising on the piano,the recorder and drums.
Its also what Im listening to most of the time - thanks to the school hols..

[Frank Di Sario]

Often when a famous American musician says something of this sort, it is really code for: "I haven't heard of any Australian muso's" or "They're not good enough to be on an American label".
Either way (as you know tinky) we do what we do and play the way we play.

On the flip side, if he gushed about our scene and went on about how great it is, would it really make a difference?

Personally, I think is a great time to be an improvising artist. If only we had some support from those at the top like Mr Sheen......

[Kenny]

Where did you read that, Tinky? Or was it in conversation with someone? Anyway, it's hardly in accordance with what he posted on his thread at the AAJ BB.

Large? What does that mean?

IMHO, Australia positively bristles with creativity.

I reckon the worm has turned. That glorious isolation, which used to be a very real problem for Australian artists, has become a positive.

It allows our guys 'n' gals to prosper (in an artistic sense, if not a material one) far away from the sort of malignant, bloated and constipated stagnancy that adversely affects large swathes of the US music scene.

I found it incredibly heartening, even though I shouldn't have been surprised, that when some of resident players started name-checking their "influences", several chose to cite fellow Australians as role models rather than the more obvious northern hemisphere candidates. And did so with righteous pride.

[tam]

I don't know how he could have heard much - i think he was here for only a few days and was probably rehearsing, doing workshops and gigs anyway.

When I first went overseas and made it over to New York, I expected to be blown away by everything I heard musically. I saw so much music and only a small portion of what I saw was really great. The standard of live music here is totally world-class and I think part of the unique-ness that makes Melbourne bands sound "Melbourne", is our separation from other continents. Bands can find gigs here and really develop a sound without being influenced by every schmo that does the touring circuit each year.

mr sheen.... I like it

[Kenny]

tam said:

I think part of the unique-ness that makes Melbourne bands sound "Melbourne", is our separation from other continents. Bands can find gigs here and really develop a sound without being influenced by every schmo that does the touring circuit each year.

Yes, that's it in an nutshell. Not only do youse guys develop your own things without the overweening, unhealthy influence of specific individuals, you also do so well away from the rigid, turgid atmosphere created by the corporate/radio/university/record label/jazz media/jazz establishment mindset.

There are of course heaps of Yanks doing that, too, but you'll almost always find 'em in the same sort of nooks and crannies as you lot inhabit.

If music was a factor in choosing where to live in the US, I'd go for Seattle over NY or Chicago any day.

[bxckxtrxdxr]

AS far as Avant Garde music, particularly of the improvised nature, Australia is pretty amazing at the moment.

You only need to check a magazine like the Wire or the Paris Transatlantic Webzine and see how often the Aus avant garde is favourably canvased.

[johnk]

avant garde a clue bout the yank scene nowadays. but yep Seattle be the place 4 me 2..
Weir & Tam u guys r dead rite.... Osbys website is cool 2 Vickijane u IT nerd but not as cool as OJF & less swearing

[tinky]

Kenny, apparently he made the comment to Andy Milne before Andy's trip here. Hopefully Andy will have his own experience that will prove different.
I Like it GH, kids are so creative when playing ( literally ) music. Its often when they start lessons that the creativity is limited by teachers only offering limitations, thankfully teaching skills are more open to things nowdays. I know that my kids have a great time with Kynan R at Nth Roy, its that type of approach that can foster more creativity in our future musos.
I agree that we are lucky here that we have space between us and the big history of Jazz. We don't have the weight of all the baggage that comes with being an American muso, or European for that matter. I think too that this is why living here for me is so important, Aus rocks!

[antboy]

yeah l gota say it's pretty weird here in Nantes on this subject! Still something I struggle to get used to as there is not really a scene at all!
The main difference between here and oz is the money given to the arts by the government. The money given to the arts here is just incredible. In most medium sized towns in France there will be an association to present concerts of jazz, a few for rock, another for experimental music, film, theatre, culture in general, and the money given by the state is pretty huge.
l worked it out once that about the same amount of money that was given to the make it up club ( for example ) for one year ( say $10000 ) is about the same amount most of these small associations would get a month...this money goes towards staff to organize the concerts, publicity, sound men, paying the artists etc
so with all this money surely you would expect an amazing scene where musicians are paid well, creating great things, playing all the time etc..
well ummm...
If you do a concert here you can get anything between 100 and 600 euros to do a gig, plus the travel expenses, food and accom, but you can only realistically play at these places ONCE a year max, if your lucky. And because everything is booked so far ahead and organized well in advance it's nearly impossible to find a space to just organize something small and casual, and you are always competing against the bigger structures with the money to do serious advertising etc...
so as Tam says you can't ever find a space to just set up a gig and work on your shit, develop a sound etc...
so as a result many musicians play once a month max and in really un-vibey, precious, pretentious environments,
so as a result lots of musos don't have the experience of playing a lot...
and playing a lot surely helps towards a creative scene, a scene where things are born out of...
the other serious problem for me is that because there is a seperate space/association for each style of music none of these different scenes ever mix, the jazz people go to the jazz place that has the money from the state to do jazz concerts, the rock people to the rock places etc
these are just some thoughts,

the flip side is that touring is heaps easier, you can get paid really well, your always really well looked after, you play less so generally when you do play it is a big deal and your more focused, audiences generally know what they are getting and are not saying, "uhh, that's weird!", or "play some barnsey" ( although l miss that sometimes! )...so goods and bads...

sorry to spout a lot of shit to try to get to the point, but l guess l never really thought about how great the melbourne scene was in terms of diversity, ( people mixing all the styles up with little regard for whether it is jazz, rock, whatever ), the types of places you can play, and also in terms of how often you can play...among other things...

[aka]

Someone saying that there doesn't seem to be much of a creative music scene is kind of what you would expect (understandably perhaps) from a tourist..you get the same stuff from tourists who who only go to restaurants they find in the hotel mag next to their bed...you kind of have to dig a bit deeper to reveal the gigs, the recordings etc...the constant activity of creative musicians here always astonishes me given the political environment we are in...

[geofhughes]

Wills assessment of the scene in Nantes is pretty much how I remember it in Holland in the late 80's and early 90's.
The streams are separated- through the intense competition that arises for funding - because there is some serious money - and then interaction between the Avante Garde, the hardcore jazz guys etc,ceases to exist.I remember there being some really vicious emnity between the "camps" - many of the straight ahead jazz guys hated the avante Garde movement because they were so often more successful in securing grants and support.
There was ,justifiably in some cases,resentment that a number of the Avante Garde- and experimental players - couldnt really play.
The funding for this music is obviously lower here - considerably, even when you take population into account - but the environment here still has its own kind of internal regulator - I hate to say it, but the poverty of the scene here keeps most of the music honest in terms of its quality of musicianship and its influences from other streams.
For one thing - one needs artisitic drive in Aus, just to survive - theres nothing else in it otherwise.
In European Improvised music you can find this obsession with purity and specialization.But this exists in the political world of institutionalised music - where there is alot of talk and posturing ,where some musicians were literally employed by the government.
So the stakes are high.
Its still so great to hear players around here who are really adept at both - because they have to be..who retain their own convictions about the music and bring it to whatever they play(I know that point has arisen again recently) We need support for that to a greater degree in Australia.
But, if Mr Sheen ever came through with the goods - I wonder if we would retain that honesty, interaction and character to the music.

What do others think about this?

The 'other side' of politics emerges when there is some serious funding introduced to the arts

[Kenny]

geofhughes said:

But, if Mr Sheen ever came through with the goods - I wonder if we would retain that honesty, interaction and character to the music.

What do others think about this?

Um, sorry but I'm cynical enough to think not. Or not totally anyway.

Its still so great to hear players around here who are really adept at both

Not just "both", but both contemporary AND traditional styles within jazz itself. That's simply great in my book, and I'm sure it add to the strength of the Melbourne music. I know something akin to this happens in New Orleans (or used to ...) - and for very similar reasons. Got to feed the kids! etc

[antboy]

good to hear yr thoughts on this geoff, there's some truth in what you say about "In European Improvised music you can find this obsession with purity and specialization.But this exists in the political world of institutionalized music - where there is alot of talk and posturing ,where some musicians were literally employed by the government."
It is more often the fault ( fault for lack of a better word ) of the systems that kind of force this specialization, so then the curators follow suite, not so much the specialization of the musicians etc...
This specialization is unavoidable when your dealing with this amount of money, I mean it is the same for us if we apply to OZ CO for a grant, you have to say what you are doing with the money (!),
same here in Europe, you gota say 'we will book this kind of music'...
I guess the day I wrote the last long post I was more focusing on the negatives whereas now l can think of equal number of positives about this amount of funding for the arts, it could never be good OR bad, just positives and negatives...
On a musical level I really don't understand all this need to be so pure in music (!), all this "both" stuff?!
l mean if you are influenced by contemporary jazz/free music whatever it is going to come out in yr playing whether your playing standards, louis armstrong or whatever...l think the really good players play like this, it's not like "l put on this this hat for this band and the other for the other bands..."

[geofhughes]

Yeah - its not "both" - I was just using that word in regard to the particular polarisation of approaches that I experienced in Europe - 15 years ago!