Schopenhauer-Target

[tallpoppygrower]

"All instruction is but a finger pointing to the moon; and those whose gaze is fixed upon the pointer will never see beyond. Even let him catch sight of the moon, and still he cannot see its beauty."

Tinky, no ofcourse im not a NOT a genius, so stop looking at my finger.
but I thought it would be somewhat inspirational to post the TARGET qoute though.
And then, everyone one has to come down on me - cut the poppy down. I am not attacking anyone. Ofcourse life happens as well but when you do get the time to
work, focusing on what is resonating most deeply is crucial , as apposed to endlessly copping other peoples shit. That’s all Tinky. You are so fucking gung ho .YES TIM,
YES EVERYONE! you need to come from something, from a lineage etc. This is so obvious. Im talking about something I now realise I should keep to myself.

Re: “Why don’t I do it” Im trying. And im beginning to see something, its faint and crucial. “THE PLACE” Tinky is not something literal. and is completley subjective.... But I feel like this is a waste of time. Im not
Trying to one up like you. I was just trying to bring something interesting to the table. But you know what , fuck it! go back to your Recipes and sychophantic complimentary dimplomacy.

Tim sometimes people can be too educated.

“unseemly” …Must you come the raw prawn constantly? I give up.

I now understand its not worth it.

[isaacs]

Hey tpg, don't despair. Thanks for that great post. It is worth it for a lot of us.

[timothystevens]

Sorry, but can I just say that my first contribution to this thread was in response to something Mim said, and not directed at TPG? I thought that was obvious. TPG replied directly to me, attibuting this and that, rightly or wrongly, and so I wrote again, but in the first instance I made no comment at all on the original post.

If you're saying you think I'm too educated then truly, I despair. I'm flattered, but I despair. Can I make it any clearer that my musical journey is all about the things you mentioned at the outset, the looking within as well as without, the searching, the discovery, the process over product, all that? I'm sorry you're so defensive and I'm sorry if it's come to be that when I say something it's assumed that I'm waving a flag for closeted musicology or something. Far from it.

[isaacs]

Don't you despair either Tim. Musicologists - those who are ONLY musicologists that is - don't play inspired music like you do. That much is obvious.

[tinky]

TPG, it seems to me you might be doing what you accuse us of?
Look, Tim and I are just proposing stuff same as you. I'm not being gung ho its just a subject I find interesting and am passionate about. To think of that as trying to one up is just bloody sad and defensive. If your on the search be prepared for some discussion.
For starters your first post declared that more artists should dedicate themselves to the plight of their 'place', well news in, lots do and are. I do, Mark does, Tim does, you say you are, we do it how we see fit. Yes it is subjective, how could it not be.
Let me ask you too, if we are not genius then why bother. If its just mere talent what hope have we got? I like the idea that we dont have to be a genius to be capable of acts of genius, so we need only to find the place that allows us to do that. I know I'm not a genius ( der ) but I am capable of my form of genius. I've met people of astounding musical capabilities, ones you might call genius, does that make their music great? No. Who knows, maybe only a genius can truely appreciate the music of a genius.
By asking a question of a statement, does that mean that you disagree with that statement? I think not. Why not question everything? Even the things you believe.

[timothystevens]

You said it, Burt.

[tinky]

Another thought.

Why dont creative artists focus solely on developing the targets that are invisible to others and then spend their precious energy to hit them, because this would save souls?

1 Because the targets are invisible to them too or they just don't have one?
2 they do, you just don't know it?
3 What makes you think it would save souls? Who's soul's?
4 They've all been hit?
5 Wibble?
6 If too many did it, genius would be commonplace?
7 Who could be fucked?
8 fear of missing it?
9 fear of hitting it?

[antboy]

surely the target changes all the time too, that's one of the main things that keeps us moving forward...

[mim]

ARGH --- too -- many ---- posts! I missed a whole day of discussion, and the attempt at addressing all comments has filled me with anxiety, mainly at my inability to form a concise opinion. So I won't directly address much at all.

My position on this topic is as somebody who is nowhere near finding their own voice. From here, all I can see is a road ahead filled with bloody hard work, trying to absorb as much of the history as I can. Coming from three years of institutionalised jazz education (where you feel like it's drummed into you, absorb the history, listen to the music, learn the language, no one is gonna listen to what you have to say until you've payed your dues and you can rip it up and you can play in all these styles, ugh, DEEP BREATH), and then straight into this place (where so many people are like, stop playing standards, don't sound like somebody else, find your own voice, try to hit a target no one else can see), is so daunting, and it's a lot of pressure.

I don't think I've just been programmed to feel like I've got nothing to say. If I don't fully explore and understand the music that has come before me (and by "the music", Tim, I mean any and lots and all), how would I know if it's already been said? The long arduous process of trial and error? For young players I think it's preferable to spend time building knowledge, developing chops if you want to be able to use them, learning standards (because, as it has been discussed, they teach you a lot about melody, harmony, etc, although they are not the ONLY method) and/or music of whatever style you choose (being incredibly pc here). I don't want to still be doing this when I'm 40, or for that matter, 30. But I think it takes a lot of exploration (internal and external) for someone to be able to find that target no one else can see.

Tinky said he's been focussing on his own music and that space for 15 years. Tinky, I'm not calling you old, but I used my powers of deduction to come to the conclusion that you weren't doing this at the age of 21. Could you have? Or did you have to go through whatever you went through to get to a place where you could do that?

I think that those who get stuck sounding like 'so and so', and can't get past it to go on a search for that target, are unlikely to have hit that target had they gone straight into searching for it. Does that make sense?

And, have I missed the point?

[tinky]

Mim, you haven't missed the point. That was a cool honest rave and it reminds me of some things.
Firstly, Will is right, the target keeps moving. At your age I had a target, its very different now. When I was 21, my target was girls, beer and just sorting through the shit of my life, it was great fun but I don't want to do it again. I worked hard at learning the mechanics of music from 15 to 18, listening, practising etc, I had the target in mind to just learn, then I left home and school and went a little wild. It wasn't untill I was 25 that I woke up and thought I'd better get back on track. This was mainly because I had lost sight of a 'target'.
Now this time ( 20-25) actually was a huge learning curve too, I learnt about me, how I love to have fun, be crazy. My humour ( if you can call it that ) developed through meeting people like Lambie, Barny M etc, it was a time of maturing ( or the opposite in a way ). I saying all this because I had to go through it to find out who I was and what/how the fuck I wanted to be both personally and as an artist.
When I refocused, I didn't change myself, just my approach. I knew how I wanted to play but I was nowhere near it. When I heard Simmonds it all made more sense, it was like I had been given permission to see my target by hearing him play, sort of a revelation.
There is a thing to be taken into account here, it seems that you perceive a seperation between learning the history and then becoming 'you'. I'm still checking out the history, that never stops, Im still working on 'me' that never stops. Its all balance, and I'd much rather the balance lean towards me, not anyone else. The search for individuality should start from day 1, yes as an 8 or 10 yo kid and it should never stop. So what if you do something and feel amazing about it then realise its been done, who cares? Thats how it happens, you seach, reflect, study, search again, it never stops, this is your life, welcome. Sure it is shit loads of hard work, but the work is FUN. You do it for you, no one else and the rewards are huge. Why put off till tomorrow what you can start today? Fear is the only barrier. Your in a great spot, let the fun begin.

[timothystevens]

What you have to say can't have been said before, because you haven't been there before to say it. The honest appraisal of who you are and what you want to do musically will lead you into a place where no-one has ever been before. No-one else has exactly your mix of experience, exactly your character, exactly your perspective. In this sense the 'personal voice' is actually there from the beginning, it just needs to be located and refined. This takes some doing - in fact it ought to go on forever. Part of it is identifying the music that moves you most deeply and then identifying in that what it is that's making it move you. Then from this - far from merely imitating - you adapt to your own use principles that are filtered through your own sensibility. Furthermore, to get really close to four or five records is better than superficially acquainting yourself with dozens. I have a suspicion that 'institutionalised jazz education' of the kind you describe is actually big trouble for (the) music, but hey, it's an industry now with a great big international association so who am I to say? In any case, always be ready, as Davis McCaughey says, to ask the next question.

[tallpoppygrower]

Thankyou Tim, Thankyou Scott.
I have perspective now.

You are both excellent artists, without question.
Continue.

TPG

[mim]

Thanks Scott, that makes a lot of sense. Something for me to think about. I would like to respond once I've cobbled my thoughts together.

[aj]

I sometimes read the shit people post on OJF & wonder why I bother......but this has been a REALLY interesting discussion.......the sort of insights that help non-musicians gain some understanding of the processes that musicians go through. Thanks.

[Kenny]

I agree, aj, and as Mark and I discussed a few weeks back, despite all the usual crap/ratbaggery that goes on and down, there's more and more of this sort of stuff.

In this way, and despite its small supporter base, ojf is actually more intetesting than the American sites, as most members are players. Gives it a whole different feel.