It Ok to sound Bad.....

[plunk]

I was having a discussion with a singer(opera) colleague recently, in regard to the whole notion of sounding like cr*p ,really bad, particularly in the developmental stages of technique. I found it curious that classical singers , in developing their opera voices , seem to lose touch with their natural voice sound and also,it seems the centre of the pitch as well. She described the process of detachment that takes place to the voice, the objectification of the sound - and I found that pretty thought - provoking. I've heard many examples of those who havent made sense of that process......
In our own music, anyone who plays or teaches will encounter this phenomenon time and time again , on any instrument,especially if someone is changing technique or trying something new - happens to me all the time...but for me there is also an issue of what we teach our ears to hear through the medium of the voice or the instrument, or both. There is definitely a connection with realising the "sound within" as it were, but what if your internal vision is impaired by the sound you make -
is it always a matter of perserverance? Probably.
I teach some students who can barely pitch their voices to a note on the piano...
mostly because they dont sing at all - but when they do -they cant hear that its not cool... drummers mainly.
And I get to hear quite a few singers who have real pitch issues in relation to manufacturing their voices - in pursuing "technique".
When does sounding "bad," start to affect your ears in a detrimental way?

[isaacs]

plunk said:

I found it curious that classical singers , in developing their opera voices , seem to lose touch with their natural voice sound

Hi Geoff, just a comment on this point from me, which is probably incidental to the main thrust of your great post. Although it sounds lamentable that opera singers lose their "natural voice sound" I would have thought that this is necessary in the medium to the extent that projecting your voice without amplification over the top of a 100-piece orchestra so it can be heard in the back of a 1500 seat hall is already unnatural to begin with. The "losing the centre of the pitch" thing is also I suspect a byproduct, but the truly great opera singers keep it at bay. What microphone singing gave us in the 20th century was taking those problems out of the equation - you don't have to change your sound simply to be heard.

[giannim]

Hey Geoff, the abilty to let yourself go through a long process where you allow yourself to"sound bad" in order to reach a long term goal, seems to be one of the the most difficult areas of musical practice. I have experienced this myself, having gone through a major embouchure change about 4 years ago. The connection we have to our own sound is so often tied into our very ideas of self worth!!! (Kenny werner of course talks on and on about this in "that" book). In terms of the voice, I too have worked with many students who can't get within a fifth of pitching a certain note. Good relative pitch must be something that all people can learn (especially those studying music), but getting past the "sounding bad" stage is a real challenge, especially if you are already quite proficient on your instrument.Singing in opera must be one of the most difficult musical pursuits! Sorry, I've crapped on.....

[plunk]

Is that right Kenny? - how you sounding now?

Think ya meant Kenny Werner, G. - and I know some self affirmation thing is vital in that formative time - but it can go pear shaped....

The whole notion of training a voice to carry over an orchestra is the cause of many aesthetic miscarriages dont you think Mark? - But its amazing to hear a soprano nail their stuff in Woccek or Lulu - because the vibrato thing just doesnt sound so good when you are trying to sing those angular intervals.

[plunk]

I should say that my intention here is not to bag opera singers Mark- although I already have - one of my most fond memories is of NZ pianist Bruce Greenfield and singer Anthea Moller performing Schoenbergs Hanging Gardens cycle in a history class at uni one afternoon....it was astounding.My concerns about distorted pitch perception and the need for some degree of accuracy in perception is the result of many years in third stream and mainstream aural studies teaching... and how the voice trains the minds ear...it must be horrendously difficult to be an opera singer - its outside the realm of the kind of music that interests me in general although I wouldnt mind mind checking out Rakes Progress....
There - Ive outraved ya G.

[isaacs]

plunk said:

The whole notion of training a voice to carry over an orchestra is the cause of many aesthetic miscarriages dont you think Mark?

It's a very interesting point Geoff (and by the way I didn't think you were bagging opera singers really). It would be a massive change in traditional performance practice, but it is an idea that is worth airing that opera singers could be trained differently if the use of microphones was accepted in opera houses. Not singing right into the mike as in jazz (this is impossible anyway as opera singers have to act and run around the stage too and need their arms free), but those body radio mikes that attach to the the hair or cheek that are used in musical theatre and allow for the more natural (but often bad!) singing you hear there. However, since the music was originally composed with this completely acoustic trained voice in mind it might produce tensions relating to the composer's conception and certainly wouldn't be "authentic" performance practice.

I'm a huge fan of Alban Berg too.

[ladylex]

Perhaps its what your ear has adjusted to? Scientific studies have suggested that the reason a person does not ‘like’ what theyre hearing, is because their ear is not accustomed to the frequencies or the texture.

I LOVE expressionism. Alban Berg, Arapov, Webern, Schoenberg etc
But I didn’t like them at first until my lecturer forced me to understand their concepts. Now.. gosh I melt everytime I hear Transfigured Night or Erwartung

Same with Keith Jarret – first time I ever heard him, I hated his playing – it was too rough for me then not to mention his vocal offerings in the back ground driving me nuts. But, thankfully, my ears have acclimatized to him. *sigh Standards remains my most favourite DVD… next to Xanadu lol

I don’t believe in BAD music (ive written this in another thread). There is badly performed, sung, written, produced, constructed whathaveyou, but not necessarily BAD music.

[kimba]

When practising a new technique, testing the limits of a particular sound or style, I think sounding bad can be really liberating and can allow a player to move through into being a more skilled player.

I say 'think' because I have this ridiculous, self absorbed fear of sounding bad or hitting anything that sounds awful...it's incredibly limiting. I always return to this desire to produce a pure and lovely sound, and I know the day I can shake it off, I'll no doubt improve in leaps and bounds.

Sounding 'bad' in a performance is pretty subjective - I guess it's often a matter of taste!

[ladylex]

hey - Im like that with new tunes. Once Ive 'perfected' a tune, I will try and play it on the worst piano I can find - preferably out of tune, hard to play because of wrecked notes or something. Then I will play that tune on ths horrible piano until I make the tune actually sound good. My technique has to change, often my phrasing does too. It just develops my technique and perhaps also my ear. Either way, if you can make the tune sound incredible on a bad piano, imagine the impact when you play it on a beautiful one.

[thierryf]

Thats a good way I've found too. practice with a bad or worse sound. Horns seem to find that outdoors, for me just a bad amp or skewed eq or indeed a bow will do that. Bad Sound = good pratice in my book. As for fucking up a gig , well nobody wants to do that, thats why you bother at all. As For Opera singers , they are strange, I just dont know any i suppose. I met one once! Quite like them.
Sounding bad ? well alright [for the greater good] . Just dont sound Crap!