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Post by isaacs on Jul 31, 2006 16:55:04 GMT 10
About to leave Hobart.
Just watched the really excellent Andrew Legg (Head of Contemporary Music Studies at Hobart Con) conduct an ensemble class. Being a "contemporary studies" rather than a jazz course the ensemble was concerned with putting together an arrangement of an R&B-inflected song by a singer-songwriter-guitarist-student. She was a member of the ensemble class and Andrew was at the piano making suggestions. Some of the players clearly were jazz-orientated, in particular the saxophonist. She wanted a sax solo - but for half a chorus, as you would expect in an R&B song. Andrew's suggestions to the saxophonist were aimed to surmount the problem of actually saying something really telling in 45 seconds when you are used to playing 13 choruses.
It struck me that this might be something of a lost art in contemporary jazz. In this regard I think back to the 1970s when many jazz musicians were also studio musicians. I think of the magnificently-crafted short solos by the amazing jazz players that were used by people like Steely Dan and Michael Franks. I think of someone like Michael Brecker (who can also play 13 brilliant choruses in a row). And I think of Phil Woods' classic solo on Billy Joel's' "I Love You Just the Way You Are" which is a marvel of economy.
The art of the vignette. Like Haiku. A great art in itself.
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Post by maurice on Jul 31, 2006 18:52:35 GMT 10
Pop musicians are good at this too, because they don't have the the luxury of 8 minutes in which to have their say. As for the jazz musicians you mentioned, it's harder to play the 13th chorus first, so it stands to reason that only the most brilliant musicians can do it.
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Post by maurice on Jul 31, 2006 18:54:45 GMT 10
Don't know what happened there. The cat made me spill my tea.
Pop musicians are good at this too, because they don't have the luxury of 8 minutes in which to have their say. As for the jazz musicians you mentioned, it's harder to play the 13th chorus first, so it stands to reason that only the most brilliant musicians can do it.
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Post by maurice on Jul 31, 2006 18:56:46 GMT 10
My second chorus wasn't so different after all.
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Post by mim on Aug 1, 2006 1:20:59 GMT 10
(Maurice, did you know you can edit your posts?) That's really interesting, Mark, and quite true. When I was at uni I had a really eye opening 3rd year ensemble exam. Our ensemble tutor, Mark Ferguson (fantastic pianist, you know im?), ran our exam like it was a short recording session, so we got 2 takes on each tune, and in between he, as the producer, would give us notes on what he wanted to be different. We were playing Ornette Coleman's "Congeniality", from the Shape of Jazz To Come. If you are familiar with it, you'll know that the solos have no form, and there are no changes. First take we did, we all really fired up and got some awesome moments, but it was really long, which is easy to do when you can't measure it by choruses or bars. Mark (as the producer) said, yeah, that was really great, but we want this for radio, so I want you do exactly what you did then, only make it half the length..... aaaand, we're rolling. Man, I thought I was just launching into my solo, and our tenor player started playing with me and morphed it into the beginning of his solo. I was like, but-- I--- but but --- yargh! Of course he was doing exactly what we were told to do, but I wanted to slap him! Not only had I barely begun to say what I wanted to say, but it also made me realise how self-involved we can sometimes get when we have all this time to crap on and on..... speaking of which.......  |
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jamie
Full Member
Now to find a junkie...
Posts: 111
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Post by jamie on Aug 1, 2006 9:40:21 GMT 10
Wayne Shorter on The Man I Love - Herbie Hancock's Gershwins World
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Post by isaacs on Aug 1, 2006 10:05:48 GMT 10
Wayne Shorter on The Man I Love - Herbie Hancock's Gershwins World Yeah. And Wayne's a composer (and a helluva composer). I think that goes a long way to creating the mindset that would lead to a friendliness to that sort of concision and editing. |
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Post by alimcg on Aug 1, 2006 11:02:09 GMT 10
Mark, you mentioned Steely Dan, and I'll follow that up by saying that Aja is a masterclass in concise pop improvised solos. Victor Feldman's beautifully understated solo on Black Cow (which I think was from the tracking session!), Shorter and Gadd on Aja, and my fave, Jay Graydon on Peg.
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Post by isaacs on Aug 1, 2006 11:40:25 GMT 10
Yes alimcg - I was thinking particularly of Aja, which links in nicely with Jamie's comments about Wayne. What an album Aja is! Victor Feldman is certainly one of the players I'd cite as a master of this concision. I'd also make the comment that the fact that concise solos are dictated to by pop considerations (and players can hone their skills in that regard on those types of projects) obviously doesn't mean that really short concise solos have no place in jazz itself. Or no solos!
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Post by kazuo on Aug 1, 2006 12:25:20 GMT 10
Coltrane on everything on the record with Johnny Hartman!
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Post by alimcg on Aug 1, 2006 16:16:54 GMT 10
Maybe we should go back to 78s and have 3 minute takes of everything. It was good enough for Parker...
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Post by captain on Aug 1, 2006 16:37:02 GMT 10
Yeah but check out any of those boots of bird... whooeee...
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Post by ladylex on Aug 2, 2006 13:44:42 GMT 10
Wow.. thats the first time Ive ever seen anyone give some sort of kudos to "Pop" musos.
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Post by Kenny on Aug 2, 2006 14:04:44 GMT 10
I generally use more vinegar than the classic recipe usually dictates, but there you go ... I'm just a tart at heart.
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aka
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by aka on Aug 2, 2006 18:40:26 GMT 10
[quote "Wow.. thats the first time Ive ever seen anyone give some sort of kudos to ";Pop" musos.
[/quote]
Your national jazz program presenter has a secret past as an
indie pop guitarist and singer in the 80's....16 bars was plenty then...
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