Crouch

[captain]

"So we are now at a point in which this group of guys who define themselves, as I said in the essay, in those terms that Rimbaud described as having a love of sacrilege -- that is to say that their position in life is based on their rebellion against something. Now they are at the point where they can rebel against the Negro and the Negro elements in jazz, and are trying to foist people like Dave Douglas on to the scene as though he is the greatest trumpet player out there. There is no real argument about whether he is or is not. The basic thing to me is this. What you see in these magazines is that they decide who the person at the top is. In Down Beat forty years ago, everybody didn't just go for Ornette Coleman or Cecil Taylor or whomever it was. Now, the situation is that if Dave Douglas is supposed to be numero uno, everybody submits to that. If Wynton Marsalis is supposed to be neo-bop or something, everybody says that. There is not a situation where you have any real debate over the relative merits of different musicians, or what their aesthetic is or is not. That kind of exchange is not going on...."


Another person upset with a lack of real debate. And yes, Crouch is a cunt blah blah blah.

[captain]

here's the whole article, it's hella long though.

www.jerryjazzmusician.com/mainHTML.cfm?page=/greenberg.html#Illuminating%20the%20variety%20of%20possibilities%20within%20the%20jazz%20idiom

[aj]

Whereas Stanley says that Wynton is numero uno, and we all should submit to that !

[gator]

Crouch 's main problem is that he is fundamentally unable to view the music from anything other than a stale political viewpoint which makes his comment about lack of debate based on "merit" laughable.
He sees the music as an expression of a particularly narrow view of African American culture, where strong musical personalities became political icons -most often unwittingly(unlike Wynton )
He is a cunt - to suggest that Dave Douglas is a reactionary icon to Negro music is just confirming his own lack of musical and creative perception. None of these guys would have developed their voice without the influence of great negro and european musicians, guys like Dave Douglas are the inevitable and affirmative offspring of great music in mixed cultural diaspora,and this is acknowledged time and time again.
When Rimbaud talks of sacrilege,it is the sacrilege that harms beauty, not the questioning of what is politically expedient and the status quo.
If he has a problem with downbeat polls , fair enough - so do I.If there are conspiracies abounding as to the nature of how the music industry influences our thinking - hello! This is the politics of economic control - if we dont like it -dont buy it.
Crouch is a confused and bitter commentator on a bygone era.

[ironguts]

The shit he says about Bitches Brew on the Electric Miles video is absolutely hilarious though. It all just makes him look like the ignorant narrow minded conservative that he is. Simply a failed free jazz drummer that is bitter and twisted that he doesn't have a musical bone in his body, except when Wynton is taking him from behind of course!

[captain]

Full points to Gator for good debating, zero points to Ironguts for going with the status quo.

That whole article smacks of paranoia, but I like the points he makes about great musicians being forgotten because they were being creative within familiar territory.

[alimcg]

I often wonder if Stanley really believes in everything he says, or if he says stuff 'cause that's what people expect from him, or perhaps he just wants the "fame" that comes with being hardline. Is he the Stan Zemanek of jazz critics. He suffers too, in that any good points he makes are overshadowed by the crazy talk. So a good point (like you mentioned Cap) is overlooked.