Jazz writing gets worse

[mim]

Thankyou Bodgey. I'm glad you took the bait so I didn't have to; you put it so much more eloquently than I would have.

[ladylex]

bodgey said:

ladylex said:

pfft you are all so behind the times.

Jazz has moved on to Electronica. Any of you been to any Berlin or Viennese nightclubs lately? Miles Davis is being played on the dancefloor with kids wigging out to Silent Way.

Jazz has 'moved on' to electronica? Care to clarify?

I lived in Berlin for most of last year, and I can tell you now that Miles is NOT being played on the dancefloor, and the kids are most definitely NOT 'wigging out' to In a Silent Way.
Granted, a greater percentage of the population in places such as Berlin are aware and interested in 'jazz' than in Australia - but to make sweeping statements such as the above strikes me as a little absurd. Yes, occasionally a club will play some Kruder-Dorfmeister track from the mid 90's with some poorly chosen sample from Miles, Billy, Basie etc, and yes, maybe a club will occasionally even play some 70's 'jazz-fusion' rubbish - but this hardly qualifies as 'jazz moving on to electronica'. Smells a bit retrospective to me.

...and we all know about being retrospective, don't we Captain, AliMcg, JohnY and Scrotie McNutbag? Bloody Sydney.

Purely out of curiosity - what clubs did you go to?

Because I had this exact same conversation with a few dudes from the Mothership Orchestra.. oh yes and Florian.. hmm yes... who in fact endorsed that statement when I presented it to him.

Just because YOU are personally not included in the fray of gay men in underground Vienna or Berlin does not mean it isnt there. It simply means you were not underground enough to be exposed to it. Look out for Skalpel, Sonar Kollective and Jazzanova - who take samples from Miles Davis, Stan Getz Horace Silver and Dexter Gordan, hit it to HipHop rhythms against 4/4 dance beats. And omg.. check it out - they have albums too!

It is happening. Perhaps you are blind to it ;D

But hehehe... dance will take over the world. ;D BTW: Look at Broken Beat and nu-Jazz. Bands like Crazy Penis, Brisbane's very own PTYLTD, Jazzanova, Chuck Love, Bugz In The Attic - they ALL sample jazz fusion stuff and incorporate it into their Dance tracks.

[bodgey]

Thanks, you just proved my point for me.

It is SAMPLED, it's not jazz they are playing! Bitches Brew ISN'T being played in the clubs...it's all sampled.

I have heard most of those acts you mentioned, and most of them bore me to tears...on the other side of the coin, some artists using samples I have plenty of time for i.e. Squarepusher - it's actually musical.

As for clubs I've been to: oxymoron, white trash, goya, astro bar, super molle and plenty of those informal parties put on by collectives around Berlin in people's houses or wharehouses etc. I don't profess to be a klub-fanatic, but I tried to check the scene out a fair bit.

My point is that I don't consider that a few samples applied to some D&B or hiphop grooves constitutes Miles being played on the dance floor. It's misleading.

So, to re-iterate, jazz HASN'T moved on to Electronica....electronica is merely extracting a few bars here and there from old jazz records.

...all of which I don't take much offense to, I just don't particularly like the way most of it is done.

subjective, subjective, subjective

[mim]

Ladylex, all that amounts to is that jazz may possibly be revolutionising dance music. There's no way that sampling a miles track for a bunch of kids to "wig out" to is having any kind of a resounding effect on jazz.

[alimcg]

ladylex - dance will take over the world.
alimcg - dance is where everything came from. Is dance therefore taking over itself?

[bodgey]

bodgey - Q.E.D.

[ladylex]

.....says you guys having not listened to these albums. I ask you listen to them.. then get back to me.

Refer to my suggestion of bands and tell me that they do not base their music upon jazz principles. Its more than sampling. While many like Sonar Kollective are sampling these tunes, they are rebuilding them into new completely forms. One of Jazzanova's tunes “Hanazono” from the album In Between (2002) features jazz pianist Hajime Yoshizawa. It is definitely based upon jazz principles (and has a time sig of 11/8 LOL to the poor soul who has to play that! LOL)

Jazz has been taken to a different dimension. It really has. Refer to PTYLTD for another example. it is undoubtedly jazz improvisation played over 4/4 dance beats. The triplet subdivisions are still there - just fitted differently over the 4/4 formats.

The kids are wigging out to it. Florian himself said he couldnt believe this was really happening - and from the sounds of it, he was impressed by it too. Because unlike ourselves, Jazz (in all its many splendoured forms ;D ) remains completely new and unheard of to them. Its happening. Jazz is being eaten by dance. and dammit.. Ive been listening to it and its wonderful. Bugz in the Attic come bless our souls!

btw.. no one complained when Miles went electronic LOL

And Miss Mim. I never knew you were such a fence sitter and needing boyish approval to question a post LOLs Hope youre well anyways i dont believe Jazz is not revolutionising Dance. If that were indeed the case - youd have heard the tunes by now. Dance is revolutioning jazz in many ways - particularly the technology. Ive just seen a rehearsal of Jackin House DJ Freestyle performing with a mofo Jazz Sax player - and Freestyle was scratching his lil fingers to the bone over the improv. sax. Goddam.. so good!

By the turn of the century, Jazz had evolved into its most pure format IMO. It needed something as simplistic and banal as Electronica to foist it forward into the 2st century and keep Jazz relevant (again, my own opinion). Dunno about you.. but while I love my jazz recitals, I also love to hold up a bar while hearing it. I hate the distance between myself and the performer. Theres little interaction when the performer is in a concert setting.. and I dont like it like that. It doesnt effect me as much as when its in a bar setting and there's a more intimate connection between performer and audience. The rawness of being in a bar gives it that extra oomph too .. but that is my taste. Jazz developed in the clubs for chrissakes.. it doesnt have to be all hoity toity all the time.

bodgey.. nice club action there too But Jazz is jazz. Just like a sampled string orchestra remains a string orchestra on the final recording. ITS ALL MUSIC. lets not get so purist Its still jazz - sampled or not. Or do you have a problem with blue note giving their tunes to these lil indie dance groups to be remixed?

[timothystevens]

ladylex said:

btw.. no one complained when Miles went electronic LOL

Please convey our greetings to anyone left behind on that planet you're from.

[ladylex]

oh its the wonderful Tim who loves me so much.

thank you for your insightful contribution to such scintillating discussion. you choose not too.. perchance.. is it because you know so little about it?

Hope youre still practising hard at your keys btw

[ladylex]

PS I cant believe youve listened to PTYLTD and said they bore you to tears bodge!

[ladylex]

or even Quantic Soul Orchestra!



EDIT: spelling.

[ladylex]

Also: Check out Tommy Trash, Ricardo Rae, Chuck Love, Brand New Heavies are jumping on board the Electronic Train.. Dirty Laundry..

These are guys who are bonafide musicians who have jumped onto the DJ wagon and applying jazz principles to their productions. Rikki Rae especially is incredible.. He's in Miami right now representing Melbourne's finest DJs .. I knew him way back when he was a bass player studying for his jazz bachelor at the Q Con.. my.. how they jump to the dark side

[alimcg]

I guess it all comes back to what your definition of jazz is.

[mim]

I think electronic music certainly has an effect on jazz, there's some wonderful and creative original music going on there. But I see that as having little to do with remixes and the stuff played in clubs. I don't think it's the genre of dance that is having the effect, so much as the technology available to musicians to find some different sounds.

And your fence sitter remark? I would probably resent it, if I thought you had any basis whatsoever for your assumptions. What you misunderstand is that I grow weary of these ping pong matches I get involved in with you. Your blind fanaticism for whichever topic is on the table is exhausting to read, let alone reply to.

[gator]

Nicely intoned Mim.....