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Post by isaacs on Dec 8, 2005 5:49:40 GMT 10
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tinky
Full Member
hello, how am I.
Posts: 230
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Post by tinky on Dec 8, 2005 7:07:43 GMT 10
"Most Australian drummers have a fundamental problem generating energy at low volume. Setting their basic dynamic levels too high, they bully themselves and their bands into corners where accented snare-drum notes become thunderclaps."
Boy thats a pretty heavy statement. I would say that some drummers world wide have that problem, I'd even say that some have a fundamental problem generating energy at a high volume!! But to say most Ausy,, is a bit harsh. I'd like to see him put a tick next to a few names to clarify that statement, out of the 'most' that I know its generally not true. Maybe he should have said " I find most Aus,,,," , then its not such a definative statement.
Maybe he's refering to Bloxom as he's the only other drummer he mentioned and Firth was replacing him. Whatever the case its an unreasonable statement to make with no explanation to back it up, especially considering it was in a printed article.
Having said that I find John Shand to be a perceptive and knowledgable reviewer, maybe his article got chopped up a bit.
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Post by isaacs on Dec 8, 2005 8:40:32 GMT 10
I've let John know of this thread's existence and have invited him to respond if he wishes to.
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Post by Beano on Dec 8, 2005 9:14:10 GMT 10
Most Australian drummers - what the fuck? What? Being Australian has an effect on your drumming! What a load of rubbish. So Shand has heard every Australian drummer and made comparisons with all the other drummers from all the other countries in the world.
This is why I hate 'most Australian critics. Too much power, too little knowledge and too big ego. Big fish, small pond.
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Post by march on Dec 8, 2005 9:46:58 GMT 10
I would agree that there are quite a few drummers who i consider quite mono-dynamic. That said I also think there is alot of music being played that is mono-dynamic.
Listening to guys like Wayne Shorter's band, Tom Rainey, Craig Taborn, Jason Moran, Tim Berne, they all have the ability to create and sustain tension and energy and not hit the shit out of their instruments.
If I was having a conversation with somebody, I don;t want them shouting at me the whole time, even if they are agreeing with what I say. Nor do I want to be struggling to make out what they say. Humans are naturally multi-dynamic in every day life! The same comparisons can be drawn I think with melodic contour and rhythm: the connection between our being and how we play music is one that I think a lot of people ignore.
Whenever I hear somebody play and get and stay loud quickly, all I can ever think of is: "Geez I hope they don;t make love like that."
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Post by isaacs on Dec 8, 2005 10:51:31 GMT 10
Dynamics are a vexed area.
To me what separates really good players/singers from really great players/singers is the kind of SOUND they make (the really good players always have facility and deep idiomatic knowledge in common with the really great players). OK, the really good players have A SOUND. To me the really great players have a "meta-sound", by that I mean that their overall sound has many sounds within it. In other words - they thoroughly use dynamics - and - at the deepest level dynamics also includes...COLOUR. The latter is often overlooked. Dynamics is not just amplitude, i.e. loud vs soft (though this is important). It's many other parameters too. For example, the attack transient can be varied even at the same level of amplitude, which translates simply into ARTICULATION. There are so many ways of starting a note (even for players of fundamentally percussive instruments like piano, drums and bass). Then there's tone colour. This is only controlled by the attack transient for pianists, drummers and plucking bassists because that's all they have. (Actually, bassists can add vibrato or vary pitch on a sustaining plucked note, pianists can do a certain amount with the pedal and drummers can choke or partially choke sustaining cymbals but it's limited compared to horn players and vocalists who can vary colour substantially WITHIN a note).
Then all this potential for nuance at the individual level can be translated to the ENSEMBLE level.
I often mark dynamics into my head charts, making an ensemble dynamic change part of the tune. This is rare though not at all unheard of in jazz. One favourite device is what's called "subito piano" in classical music - suddenly soft.
Mentioning classical music brings up another point. Dynamics in the broadest sense are often a part of what is drummed (as it were) into "schooled" players. In classical music all the artistry is in the interpretation of an existing text, so it is not surprising this is emphasised. Also classical music is generally always played in an environment (a completely quiet reasonably reverberant space) where dynamics can be fully appreciated.
With jazz it's a case of the music moving from the vernacular and becoming to a great extent a "schooled" music where these things are a part of jazz too now, and the music is also played in quiet spaces like Bennetts Lane, Sound Lounge and the Sydney Opera House. So they aren't alien to jazz though perhaps need more emphasising, thought and reminder to achieve than would be the case in classical music.
It is in this linking with the schooled aspect of the music and the nature of the performance space that I would give qualified support to John's proposition, though I think there is a generational thing at play. Certainly the generation of Australian jazz musicians currently over 50 did not grow up experiencing many quiet clubs to play in, in order to explore their potential for dynamics. By the 40s and 50s in the USA and Europe there were already serious listening clubs whereas we didn't see these as a truly permanent fixture in Australia until the early 90s (Yes I'm aware of El Roco and its Melbourne equivalent) and thus I think an earlier generation of players in the USA and Europe delved deeply into the art of dynamics while Australian players were still more involved with what Keith Jarrett has described (not disparagingly) as the "rough end of desire". But John's paradigm I would venture applies less to players under 50 and even less again to players under 30. Also in the Sates there is a longer-standing tradition of large ensemble charted music-making that starts in high school with the high school stage band thing which has been around a long time there and is only just starting here. In those situations people get their asses kicked if they don't play dynamics! I've often said that Australia lacks a really developed large ensemble playing tradition compared to the States and Europe - for all the wonderful musicians in and music that emanates from Ten Part Invention and the AAO these bands are actually congolmerates of soloists that are not necessarily as equally developed as ensemble players. This has advantages and makes the music what it is with powerful results but it does mean that some areas of ensemble playing receive less acuity, in the case of TPI ensemble intonation for one, another vexed area (let's see if I get howled down for daring to nitpick an Australian jazz icon)
Interesting to note that one of the most dynamically rich recordings in jazz (to my knowledge) is the Miles Davis Quintet concert that produced My Funny Valentine and Four and More. Note that it was a concert in a hall and that many of the players were "schooled".
So far I have been talking about all players, but John's singling out of drummers I can understand as it is the most purely percussive of all the instruments and thus most prone to a dynamic impoverishment that inflicts itself on everybody else in the band. But let it be said there are plenty of people who bash the piano, blow relentlessly hard through their horn, turn up their guitar amps inordinately and play gutbucket bass.
Finally it must be said that there are valid forms of artistic expression in which the whole point of the music is NOT to have dynamics. Even in classical music this occurs, most often in a single short movement that is relentlessly loud as a deliberate effect and statement. In classical music this will generally be balanced out in larger scale architecture by a preceding or ensuing movement evoking real dynamic contrast. Not so in Heavy Metal! But NO DYNAMICS is a valid way to make music if that's the way you want to say it. As far as the analogy to "making love" by "march", though it may be politically incorrect to say it I have it on reliable authority that in an atmosphere of trust what might be viewed as a "relentless assault" can have its own merits for both genders. . .
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Post by marc h on Dec 8, 2005 15:11:31 GMT 10
Don't worry, I'm not saying anyway of playing music is more VALID than another, all I'm saying is that I'm into variety.  |
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tinky
Full Member
hello, how am I.
Posts: 230
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Post by tinky on Dec 9, 2005 7:29:37 GMT 10
Mark, interesting comments re ensemble playing. One great ensemble that did well in history that was made up of soloists was Dukes band. Personally, I think a band that is made up of soloists should be more in touch with the idea of dynamics as that should be a large part of creating an effective solo.
I do find that too often at the start of solo sections there is not enough breathing space, and some are too keen to "get going", but then have nowhere to go to so the solo ends up mono-dynamic. This is a result of not only lacking the skill to generate energy at a lower dynamic level but also not having the strength, musically or instrumentally to do it at a full dynamic to reach significant climax ( good word for March's analogy). This is not to say climax can't be reached softly!!
Food for thought, if everyone is playing the same level, being soft or loud, isn't that mono-dynamic? Piano should allways be soft and trp/drms should be loud, its the nature of music!!
A great player once said to be " don't give it all away in the first tune", I'm still working on that.
On the tuning front I find that pianists are so fussy about tuning but they can't play in tune. This tempered pitch thing is way over rated and that is why its often fun to play without piano!! (Or play with the tuning to shit the pianist)
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Post by isaacs on Dec 9, 2005 7:43:44 GMT 10
Tinky, a few responses, as your thoughtful comments make me hasten to clarify.
Re a big band of soloists, I'm not saying that peak ensemble playing achievements are off limits to a band of soloists. But in that case we could be dealing with players who are both great soloists AND ensemble players (by "ensemble players" here I really mean "section players"). Perhaps I was venturing that this kind of versatility is less common in Australia.
Re non-tempered tuning used creatively I totally concur for small group playing. When you're playing as a soloist with a rhythm section you can take huge "liberties" using non-tempered tuning creatively and it can work a treat. But surely that approach comes unstuck in a saxophone or trumpet SECTION with each player tending to do that . . .? It was large ensemble SECTION playing that I was making my tuning point about, and I think there are are particular issues with intonation there where the horns are configured vertically to create chordal structures. Then equal temperament IS important particularly with the chromatic harmony so common in jazz in a way that I agree it is not always so vital in the more linear environment of a small group (particularly without piano).
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Post by Vicki H B on Dec 9, 2005 9:00:23 GMT 10
Simon Barker
Felix Bloxom
John Pochee
Ronny Ferella
David Jones
Niko Schauble
Tony Flloyd
Alan Browne
Ted Vining
Dave Beck
Ben Vanderwal
Andrew Gander
Nick McBride etc. etc. etc.
yeah right!
Sorry mate you can't blame that silly generalisation on the sub.
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tinky
Full Member
hello, how am I.
Posts: 230
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Post by tinky on Dec 10, 2005 5:41:47 GMT 10
Mark, your right about that stuff. I was having a bit of fun with the tuning one, and the ensemble experience may well be true too. I was lucky enough to do a lot of orchestral and big band through high school so I did get a fair schooling, although some may say it doesn't show!
Actually one reason I practiced hard was so I got good enough to play in small groups instead of the large ensemle, just my preference.
Back to the drummer thing, the list above says alot! here's some more to consider;
Phil Trelor, Tony Buck, Greg Sheehan, Lois Burdett, Ken Edie, Alan Turnbull,
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Post by isaacs on Dec 10, 2005 6:47:10 GMT 10
Tinky what you do in a small group is a zillion miles ahead of any large ensemble section playing! And your schooling does show, in a great way. Let's face it, highly developed ensemble section playing is there to serve the vision of WRITERS not a vehicle for the individuality of a brilliant soloist like yourself. But still it's great that it's around to serve an individual voice like Maria Schneider for example.
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