Just for the fun of it

[andrewh]

timothystevens said:

I offer this in a collegial spirit and am having a go at no-one on a personal level. (Except maybe Messaien.)

If you are going to have a go at poor Olivier, at least spell his name correctly.

[timothystevens]

Thanks; I regret the mistake and stand corrected. I even had Mark's mention of him above and made the error twice.

Incidentally, I don't dislke Messiaen's music because he disliked jazz - I should never be so simplistic. I don't entirely dislike his music, either, come to that. But I have my doubts about some of it, that's all. So please don't think I'm bagging him out of hand.

[captain]

I still think talking about an 'Improvisation' degree is silly Tim.

For me, and I think most performing musicians, Improvisation is a means, not an ends - so to have a degree in improvisation will inevitably raise questions as to how one has studied, and ultimately invites scorn.

As we've heard from a current student at the VCA, (I myself only finshed there in 2005) There is a very small portion of the student body that has any ability in the basics of any idiom, let alone Jazz.

I'm not sure how aware you were of the undergraduates during your time there, but the level of basic musiciansip was pretty poor two years ago.

Perhaps people around here can suggest some alternatives to a 'Jazz' degree that use less esoteric titles. I've heard good things about the music degree in Lismore, that seems pretty wide-ranging... not sure what that degree is called.

[ironguts]

It's a contemporary music degree. Now what that means is as debatable as Jazz. Basically they did folk, Pop, Rock, Jazz, Fusion, electronic etc. More focused on doing gigs I guess. Some good players down here came from there actually, they may even hang round here occasionally??

[alimcg]

I notice that nobody has really mentioned time and rhythm yet. Surely two areas that cannot be escaped, yet are so poorly understood. I know a lot of guys (horn players especially) who have a lamentable groove. So much time (relatively) is given to harmony classes, improv classes etc, but hardly anyone has a serious talk about rhythm. The course I did had a rhythm class for the 1st semester of second year improv, but even aural classes tend to underplay rhythm.

[gator]

mmm its always greener on the other side of the fence ay Captain..

I just want to add another dimension to this while we decide whats good and whats not for "jazz students".
Recently in a seminar ,myself and some others were asked to construct a model of what we would consider to be a worthwhile model of an undergraduate jazz course, in order to address the issues of that face young musicians in a post modern climate.. not unlike Tims proposal in this thread.My colleagues(not tertiary teachers) were quick to construct some very worthwhile and interesting ideas that as a practitioner of the music , I readily agreed with,experiential learning, more ensemble time , less lecturing etc, but as someone familiar with the tertiary system knew would never see the light of day in this climate. For one -none of them had much experience in dealing with a University system that is pressuring to homogenise all forms of(particularly Arts) educaton, regardless of what the process is.Two,as Guts pointed out, one is forced to deal with an inordinate number of students whose collective abilities and potential decrease as the cohort gets bigger.3.Regardless of what the level of the student is , or what my ideals as a musician are, every student is a human being who deserves respect and the benefit of ones acceptance -after all- for a poor musician its neither their fault or the teacher's, that they are there- you cant just exclude poor musicians if they are accepted through an automated university system... .you can fail them -but even that is getting complicated.And four, the increasing rigour with which an institution enforces its rights is becoming disproportionate to the level that it supports its students and staff - which is why I started the thing about the melbourne Model in the first place.
These are what undergrad teachers in these universities have to deal with before the notion of what anyone feels is valid education gets a look in.

Music does not belong in a university... especially in the quasi American model that is on the table now...without the support or environment enjoyed by the American universities this is modelled on.

[alimcg]

Isn't music at Melbourne Uni continuing as it is now? I know that's not perfect either, but my understanding was the music course was essentially remaining the same, exempt from the changes happening across most of the rest of the uni.

[alistair]

for me, I think time and rhythm are things that can only effectively dealt with via transcription and actual playing. They are very hard to really explore in any other way (IMO). More time dedicated to playing would fix this i think.

I really have to say, I think a big problem with music education today is that so much information is thrown at students before they have time to digest it properly, that the majority of students are doing what they think is right, rather than what feels right, or natural etc... this is a large part of the general inability to swing or groove that seems to be going on.

Everyone has an opinion on whether its best if the bass is in front, behind, right on etc., but precious few can just make it work- because i think they have spent more time thinking about it than just doing it.

[gator]

alimcg said:

Isn't music at Melbourne Uni continuing as it is now? I know that's not perfect either, but my understanding was the music course was essentially remaining the same, exempt from the changes happening across most of the rest of the uni.

not exempt.... just reprieved-for now.

[gator]

"More time dedicated to playing would fix this i think."



You said it Al.

[alimcg]

More time dedicated to playing is all well and good, but you need to have some knowledge base (as you do on your instrument/in harmony/in history/in ensemble playing) to start with. There are a lot of guys out there who can play their instruments and cut changes, etc. whose rhythmic understanding and sense of time is at significantly lower level. Most of us in Australia don't grow up in an environment where rhythm is central to our daily experience - I would say that most of us have a rhythmically deficient childhood! - so we need to work on it a bit harder than some. This can be an advantage though. Just as we are free from the shackles of certain styles and their history, so we are free from the weight of rhythmic history and can take ideas freely from all over. We don't have to worry too much about sticklers for tradition bringing us down for mixing rhytmic ideas from different parts of the world. This isn't an excuse to be ignorant of other traditions, but a freedom to be creative.

[ironguts]

I agree gator, music does not belong in the University. I've heard it talked of before that now days there are few apprenticeships available in the Jazz idiom. This is where Jazz was once learned. I got much more out of playing with Mark Simmonds's's's's group than I ever got in school/Uni. Rhythm, harmony, texture, form etc, it was a serious learning curve and I could play ok when I started with him. Don't know how to get this into education without setting up that basic vibe. Get the students playing more with the teachers to have their arses kicked into gear. I admit I should do it more myself when teaching ensembles.

Now Alistair, If time and rhythm are hard to explore in any other way than actual playing, why is harmony or melody any different? Surely they're just aspects of music as a whole? In fact form or texture would be the same. This is where the whole thing does fall down, students should have their instruments with them more often and be experimenting and applying things as they're exposed to them. Too many lessons where there is not enough example shown or application tried. Students should be getting their hands dirty!!

alimcg, I think things have been turning for a while now on the rhythm front. Many people have been exploring African and Indian shit for years. I do however agree that in the Jazz 'tradition' people tend get stuck on the harmony trip at the expense of rhythmic exploration.

[gator]

"There are a lot of guys out there who can play their instruments and cut changes, etc. whose rhythmic understanding and sense of time is at significantly lower level"


You know-thats not my experience of most students - rhythmic issues arise for sure - the need for stronger convictions from drummers and bassists etc, but I dont see many students cutting changes at all.In fact, Id go as far as to say that Harmony is the most neglected of the elements...only because its so hard to find in the main stream.You might not like dance music or R'n B but at least its rhythmically accurate (mechanical in some cases) most students appreciate rhythmic accuracy because of this- but give a student a basic modulation to deal with and most of them are fucked.. If you are talking about time. as in collective time, thats another issue. Sense of time in the ensemble is a practical issue that needs attention at the playing and listening level - and if you can get some sage and constructive advice from an expert -well and good.

[alistair]

"Now Alistair, If time and rhythm are hard to explore in any other way than actual playing, why is harmony or melody any different?"

I couldn't agree more. I think it's just easier to write up on a board a particular voicing, or substitution or line than it is to write up a way of phrasing or how to swing, due to the nature of our notation system.

My idea of a dream harmony class is certainly all the players sitting around with their instruments, each trying out whatever is being taught to them in the class.

In fact, what you said about playing with Mark Simmonds' group probably sums up what I want out of a uni course as a student.

For me, the ideal uni course would be more of a mentorship.
6 months with an ensemble and set ensemble tutor, who plays in the ensemble with you. A couple of hours playing, maybe 2 or 3 days a week, then a couple of hours playing perhaps without the tutor. An hour's lesson by someone else on your instrument to keep the technique side sorted. maybe a history class like i mentioned.

So really, I guess the ideal uni course isn't a uni course, but just getting invited to play in a great band with musicians that are on.

Anyone wanna invite me?

[alimcg]

I don't disagree with your view, but I think we are thinking along slightly different lines.

"rhythmic issues arise for sure - the need for stronger convictions from drummers and bassists etc," - how about stronger convictions from everybody? And while we're at it, horn players who don't use the rhythm section as a crutch. If you go to see somebody like James Muller or Scott Tinkler, you're not going to hear them relying on the rhythm section to spell it out for them, yet rhythm sections in uni courses are often treated as no more than a live play-along while horn players bumble through changes.