Just for the fun of it

[alimcg]

ironguts said:

The sad thing is there are those drummers with shit house time too! Look at the guy with McCoy.
The guy with Pharaoh could at least play in time, but what a tasteless cunt, no rhythmic tension and release at all.
So many drummers, such little time.

Too true. They could've hired any one of a number of Aussie guys who would've been infinitely better - and they would've saved on air-fares. I can think of at least a couple of dozen Aussie guys who would have kicked their arses.

There are no excuses for not working on your time.

Ok gator, let's call it a day on this one. I think we agree on what needs to be done and what outcomes there should be, we just have differing views on execution and priorities. We've probably also argued the same point against each other a bit.

Sb, you never went to uni, did you? Any views?

[captain]

I thought you said you were a student a couple of pages back Gator! Do you teach at a uni or are you doing some sort of post grad thing?

Yes Guts, I too am vexed by the fact that drummers with great time are an exception in Australia rather than the rule. Nobody feels it worse than the bassplayer...

[alimcg]

gh said:

ironguts said:

What is sintax? Is that kinda like the collection bowl at church??

pay up Guts -C'mon!

What about tension and release through rhythm?

I wasnt criticizing Elvins cadences was I?

I didn't say you were. Don't be touchy now! It's just you mentioned other things that students have struggled on, and you seemed to put harmonic/melodic tension and release ahead of rhythmic tension and release. I just used Elvin as an example - I know full well you didn't mention him, but isn't backing up claims with examples an important part of research?


I realised that through all of this I haven't really talked about what I found good and bad in my uni course. Firstly I was lucky to have five years with a great teacher who covered fundamentals, gave freedom, kicked my arse, was open minded, encouraged exploration and inspired me to practice more.

Harmony class was good. Berkly style over 2 years. A great starting point. Thorough, no wishy-washy stuff, hard and informative. We all knew that it wasn't the be-all-and-end-all of harmony, but it became a solid grounding for all of us.

History. Jazz history for two years, basically up to the 50s and 60s. Very thorough look at early jazz and precursors. Didn't pretend to be what it wasn't. Again no wishy-washy stuff. Also opportunities to study areas of personal interest.

Arranging/composition. Perhaps the weakest class. Not as well structured as history or harmony. Probably the one class where I learned a lot more from transcribing and doing my own thing.

Keyboard (for all non-piano players) - 1st year only. I didn't learn a lot, but I'd played a bit of piano before. Good for people who hadn't.

Compulsory Ensembles. First year - great. Just had my arse kicked every week. Didn't have one in second year (too many drummers in course and I had some elective ensembles). Third year - shit. Lecturers tended to talk too much. 1st semester I almost died of boredom. Luckily I had 3 elective ensembles which were much more inspiring and arse-kicking.

Improv class. When the rhythm sections were allowed to really play and had their arses kicked it was great. Not so good when we were the play-along band for a million choruses of Afternoon in Paris or Giant Steps. First year was good - had to transcribe and sing Lester Young solos. Encouraged to transcribe, and from memory I had to transcribe and learn a solo every week in semester one of 3rd year.

[alimcg]

captain said:

Yes Guts, I too am vexed by the fact that drummers with great time are an exception in Australia rather than the rule. Nobody feels it worse than the bassplayer...

This comes back a bit to a discussion you and I have had a few times before about perfect time vs. acceptable time with great groove.

I know that personally my time needs work in certain areas, but even when I know it's not perfectly metronomic I still try and make sure there's a sense of groove. There's also the question of how drummers and bass players in particular make subtle adjustments to make things work. I was once told "you may be right in your time, but if the band sounds shit, you all look bad. Don't be too proud to make the other guys sound good."

[ironguts]

Fuck, is it time to pay up? Man, I'll have to extend the mortgage somewhat!

Did someone mention Composition and it's relevance to learning Improv?? Very good point. Composition is often like learning to apply new ideas, whether rhythmic, harmonic, form etc to your musical approach. The performance is no where near as important as the process or practice me thinks. I have a friend who is actually one of the best Improvisors in the country in my book, who has a library of heaps of original compositions that have never been played. His view is that composition is a form of practice/workshop of an idea, and that by the application of a concept to composition it found a way into his improvisation. This is not to say he never performs his tunes, just that he doesn't feel the need to perform them all. Interesting ideas.

[alistair]

alimcg- where did you study? just out of interest, the course seems fairly well structured, even if there are a couple of issues.

also "We will always have a small percentage of top students who are self-motivated and want to learn as much as possible and improve as much as possible, and we really don't have to worry about them. Those students will, as I think you mentioned earlier, make it either way."

If this is true, and i think it mostly is, what responsibility does a music school have to make the average players good, and how much responsibility ultimately falls on the players themselves?

I have had this conversation so many times, and really if we consider that there is precious little opportunity or space for great improvisers to make a living in this country, then perhaps it's just natural selection happening early on. The students that can play changes and groove now, are most likely to be the ones that practice their arse off for 10 years after leaving uni and become 'successful' jazz/improvising musicians/composers etc.

The students waiting for answers rather than finding them themselves might be the ones unable to survive on their own in the outside world.

[captain]

There's also the question of how drummers and bass players in particular make subtle adjustments to make things work. I was once told "you may be right in your time, but if the band sounds shit, you all look bad. Don't be too proud to make the other guys sound good."

Of course, good time is a very esoteric and flexible concept.

Basically, if i'm in a good mood, it doesn't bother me. I go with whatever, if the tempo/pulse fluctuates then so be it. If I'm in a bad mood, I"m thinking "You incompetant drummer! stop slowing down/ speeding up!"

Maybe I should say it out loud, and join the pantheon of uber-cunty bassplayers who boss drummers around.

A local told me story about rehearsing with Harry Connick for a tv appearance. Apparently Harry wasn't happy with the tempo/groove and was giving the drummer hell. The drummer asked something like "Oh, you want it more laid back?" or something to that effect, and Harry replied "Don't play back or forward, just play in time!"

by the way the drummer was from his band, not a local, just to clarify.

[alimcg]

"Basically, if i'm in a good mood, it doesn't bother me. I go with whatever, if the tempo/pulse fluctuates then so be it. If I'm in a bad mood, I"m thinking "You incompetant drummer! stop slowing down/ speeding up!"

Maybe I should say it out loud, and join the pantheon of uber-cunty bassplayers who boss drummers around."

Careful there Cap! Those in glass-houses and all...

"alimcg- where did you study? just out of interest, the course seems fairly well structured, even if there are a couple of issues."

I'll say mine if you say yours. Ready? On 3. 1.......2.......

"If this is true, and i think it mostly is, what responsibility does a music school have to make the average players good, and how much responsibility ultimately falls on the players themselves?"

This I believe is the very crux of the issue. Music schools can only do so much obviously, but they should do what they do as well as possible. The ultimate responsibility is with the individual. If you're unhappy, first ask yourself why, then transfer to another course, or drop out and do the kind of things guts mentioned earlier.

How about jazz gigs with a click track Cap?

[gator]

Uber - cunty -now theres a good word.....

Ali -
I thought we were calling it a day?

Me touchy? - that was actually a lame attempt at cleverness -

Heres my rap for the last time Ali - I am quite prepared to deal with rhythm directly - particularly as it pertains to music in which it dominates as an element - say in Southern Indian music - I'm shithouse at it but I still practice my takathas..
Jazz on the other hand is a music that has a rich rhythmic, harmonic and melodic language that featuresin the music - sure the beautiful cats who played drums -Max Elvin, Blakey, Roy are probably never properly credited for the profound effect that they had on the music- but the voices of the music were horn players and pianists primarily - Louis, Duke , Bird ,Monk, Miles Trane etc -you know all this. What you began with in this little ' melee' was a lamentation on the poor time of horn players -although it seems from your further discussions that poor time is a universal problem afflicting rhythm section players too..I dont disagree with you -in fact I'm adding to that and saying that poor harmonic sense compounds the problem -its not just a rhythm issue. Consider what students listen to.. not a shitload of jazz thats for sure. Its groove music - mostly modal in nature , not a #5 or modulation in sight. when they come to Uni -they generally have developed a perception of what a constant time flow is -regardless of whether we think that it grooves or not -todays dance and groove stuff has to be consistent if nothing else..
So you have a student who can perceive constancy in rhythm - but that same student may not actually be able to sing a note in tune..or a perfect 4th.. or recognise a I vi ii V progression -thinks Happy Birthday starts on the tonic, and thinks modulation is a stomp box...you think Im kidding.?
I'm being flippant but this is serious - because these kids have had fuck all exposure to functional harmony - some do not get the basic relationships even of V -I. Then there is the added complexity of trying to actually create rhythmic flow, through the often complex harmonies of the standards of the canon. I mean - my own time needs constant work , but so do my harmony ears and chops - because I have to do both together - and its the same for students -learning to play licks,phrases or exercises, studies or scales out of time is crap - it has to be integrated with time, dynamic and tonal sensitivity -otherwise its a fucking waste of time -literally.
I'm gonna pull my horns in now because Ive had 3 hours sleep in the last two days =and yes Captain - Ive been Post gradding - what fun it is...

[ironguts]

You can become Master gator, savior of the harmonically impaired!! Is it a plane, is it a trane (play on words, so funny), no, it's a perfect cadence.

[gator]

GREAT- finally get the gig I deserve...

[ironguts]

you know you'll have to wear a cape and really tight undies on the outside of your pants? Just like you did the other night when we had the rubber blanket, gum-boots and 10 liters of lard! Fuck that was fun too, though I was a little chafed the next day.

[gator]

Thats coz you ate the lard first Guts!

[mim]

Ali, your course sounds similar to mine.

We had 3 years of theory. 1st year sometimes a bludge because it was for all the students of different levels to get up to speed. 2nd year theory was awesome. Chris Martin (Adelaide pianist, only about 24, was taking all three year levels that year) integrated composition and theory by teaching us the concept, and then getting us to compose a tune using it, and we had to write analysis of our own work too. 3rd year theory (not Chris anymore) wasted too much time on the George Russell Lydian Chromatic system, in my opinion. I think there's more pressing issues than that when half the class can't recognise a I-VI-II-V.

Aural - combined with the classical students, which wasn't really ideal (I'll explain why if anybody wants to know), but at least it was streamed right across the year levels. 5 different levels of Aural, and had to complete at least 2 of them.

History - once upon a time it was a 2 year history course, then, probably due to reduction of funding, it became a 1 year class, but still covering the same amount of material (about 70 years worth). Too much in a year, had to skim over a lot. It was taught as thoroughly as can be expected in that short period. Massively stressful cramming for exams.

Arranging - 2nd & 3rd year. A lot of rules to follow, not a very creative subject. I know a lot of people say you should know the rules to break them, but it was probably a bit extreme. There was pretty much only one way to do it. I'd be interested to know about other people's experiences with institutionalised arranging tutelage.

Keyboard (for all non-piano players) - 1st year only. And same as Ali, I didn't learn much, but I'd played piano before. Like history, it had previously been a 2 year class, but external forces drove them to cut a year. Damn shame.

Small ensemble - 4 hours a week, one of those hours with a tutor. Valuable subject, just sucked for some people who got stuck in a group they were unhappy with for a whole year. Plus, due to an unbalance between instruments, there were often too many horn players, guitarists and sometimes singers for each ensemble. There were ten people in my 1st year small ensemble.

Improv class - similar to Ali's. Rhythm section often used as a play-along. Also, such a variety of levels. I remember sitting there for minutes while the 2nd year impro class waited for one of the sax players to figure out a harmonic minor scale.

Rhythm class - 2 years - should have been valuable, but was a pretty weak class. We called it clapping class. I think the issue would have been better addressed in context.

Master class - a good class sometimes, sometimes not. Divided into instruments. The quality of the class depended upon what instrument you play, who the lecturer was, etc.

The 2 main problems with this course, and probably others, are a) not enough streaming; always people either bored or struggling, and b) no where near enough performance opportunity. Each small ensemble played about 3 times a year in forum. 2 tunes each time, almost always from the set list of 10 compulsory tunes. There is such a buildup for each forum performance, so performing becomes this difficult and unnatural thing for a lot of students. It's absurd.

I think expecting an individual voice from students coming out the end of a 3 year degree is unreasonable, and something for musicians to explore for themselves. Sure, encourage it, give students as many opportunities for creativity as you can, and a few exceptional individuals stand out. But I don't think there's anything wrong with foundations.

I hope people from the other institutions in this country give a run down on their courses. I think they could all learn from each other, though I'm not sure how much interstate communication goes on between them.

[ironguts]

I'd get up round 10.30 with a hangover, go over to Simmonds place and have a coffee, we would play round some cyclic substitute for a couple of hours using some sort of rhythm cycle, then we'd take Gough the border Collie for a walk and have a bite to eat and chat music, then back to practice more or rehearse for a few hours. I'd usually head off then and do a gig or jam and drink a couple of beers. We did this for some time, it took a year before I got to a stage where he got lost first on the cycle before me, and even then that wasn't often. He kicked my arse, it was great.

I guess to be honest this was the application phase for me, I'd learned a lot about harmony and rhythm in school ( high and 1 yr Uni), more information than ability, this time helped me put it onto/into - horn/music.

Mim is right, 3 years isn't enough for personal style, but the student should be instilled with the knowledge that with applied practice, in the years after Uni, they can develop a strong personal style.

Lets face it, you think studying is hard? Wait for the years of practice after! (they never stop)