Just for the fun of it

[gator]

Strong convictions from everybody....... absolutely. And yet the assumption that in order to be strong then it must be rhythmically strong first and foremost is a subjective argument. Graeme Lyall for instance is one of this country's strongest melodists in the jazz idiom, - I wouldnt say his rhythm is the most strident part of his playing - Tinky on the other hand can be stridently rhythmic - melodic for sure in his own groove - but he himself would affirm the importance of placement as much as anything else. Steve Magnusson has great time but the first thing I notice about his playing is the tonal variation. Who is to say that great conviction comes from time alone? Can strong convictions be born of other elements and affect time in a positive way?
Having said that - I totally agree with you ali about the need for more -here I go - sax players- to be rhythmically active and particapatory. But to be honest - the ones who struggle with time often struggle with other things too. If anything , I think sound and its relation to time needs to be included in any discussion of rhythm.

[captain]

That's true - when the course requires that the students reach a certain level of harmonic competence, the rhythm section and consequently everybodys rhythm approach gets neglected.

Perhaps the elephant in the corner here is that the VCA course (this criticism is less applicable to other courses) is so under-resourced that they can't possibly fit in the contact hours to cover rhythm OR harmony, so all we're left with is this vague concept of learning 'Improvisation', something that just won't happen without rhythm or harmony.

I liked Tim's point about Bach being more relevant than Messian - for myself checking out Mozart and Beethoven has straightened alot of things out for me, harmonically and structurally speaking.

Messian should perhaps be left for post-grads.

[alimcg]

ironguts said:

alimcg, I think things have been turning for a while now on the rhythm front. Many people have been exploring African and Indian shit for years. I do however agree that in the Jazz 'tradition' people tend get stuck on the harmony trip at the expense of rhythmic exploration.

All true, but my point was more in reference to the main body of students in any given course. We will always have a small percentage of top students who are self-motivated and want to learn as much as possible and improve as much as possible, and we really don't have to worry about them. Those students will, as I think you mentioned earlier, make it either way.

A lot (most even) students aren't coming from a strong rhythmic base and get insufficient guidance in developing their time and knowledge/execution of subdivisions. I've seen guys in 3rd and 4th years be freaked out when rhythm sections play relatively simple polyrhythmic ideas. Or guys who don't know what a time signature actually means. Sure, there are a lot of things that should be addressed earlier in their education, but that's no reason not to address them at a tertiary level.

The bigger question is how do we treat the (relative) mass education of jazz and improvised music? Is it to produce lots of creative musicians, or do want to make sure that "craft" is covered ahead of all else? How can any course cater for everything we think should be in it? It can't of course. Somehow though a balance must be struck. We must consider what the key elements are for tertiary music education, taking into account previous learning and the fact that for most their music education will continue on a steep learning curve for at least a few years after graduation. Should more time and money be invested in bridging courses, so that the average standard of a first year student is more even?

Has anyone ever done a serious study on the post-graduate work patterns of jazz school graduates? How many actually go on to be serious jazz musicians? Not many I'd bet. From my year we had nearly half drop-out in the first two years. Of the 55% or so who graduated only about half of them are what I'd classify as working musos, and that's using a generous definition. Some of the others focus purely on teaching, some work in unrelated fields. Does that mean jazz education is failing? Or has university just sorted out those who really want it from those who were just in love with the idea of being a musician? Should we keep admissions low and have "elitist" schools? How do balance financial pressures with ideals?

Now, in response to gator.

"And yet the assumption that in order to be strong then it must be rhythmically strong first and foremost is a subjective argument."

I'm not necessarily saying it should be first and foremost, but you cannot deny that it is neglected in the overwhelming majority of tertiary courses. But further, isn't rhythm the only thing we can't escape in music? The common element through all music everywhere? I know metre is not a requirement, but everything is rhythm.

"Graeme Lyall for instance is one of this country's strongest melodists in the jazz idiom, - I wouldnt say his rhythm is the most strident part of his playing - Tinky on the other hand can be stridently rhythmic - melodic for sure in his own groove - but he himself would affirm the importance of placement as much as anything else. Steve Magnusson has great time but the first thing I notice about his playing is the tonal variation."

How is this relevant? All of these guys are great in their own ways, and they all have their own sense of time, rhythm and groove. Priorities matter not, these elements are still present and strong. I know there is subjectivity in all this, but if we get into that, we'll never get anywhere. I'm trying to be objective as much as possible - there are guys who don't really groove to my mind, but I can hear that they are strong rhythmically or time-wise.

"Who is to say that great conviction comes from time alone?"

Not me.

"Can strong convictions be born of other elements and affect time in a positive way? "

Yes, conviction in one area spills over to other areas as confidence, and a key part of time and rhythm is conviction and confidence.

"If anything , I think sound and its relation to time needs to be included in any discussion of rhythm. "

Can you expand on this?

[gator]

What I.m saying here is that deconstructing music to work solely on one element whether it be sound , harmony or rhythm has its own inherent problems. If we even consider the idea that one should examine the symbiosis of tone production and rhythmic awareness , i.e the higher and more accurate the attack velocity, the cleaner the attack is... that ones affirmation of great time is a great sound because these things are so dependent on one another.. that perhaps great tuning gives rise to a more confident collective time - that working on ones groove transforms harmonic rhythm and that strong melodic, timbral and textural concepts have their own effect on time and vice versa - maybe the best teacher of time is experiencing it through playing and listening as part of a musical whole - as opposed to just singling it out.

The malaise that afflicts the majority of popular music is that its becoming exactly that thing that attempts to deconstruct music to some essence - and loses the essence in the process.

In the spirit of great music making, I just want to say that time problems are not just a matter of addressing the obvious - but, if we want horn players to understand time better -maybe they should all learn to play drums - what better way to experience it?and similarly - we should do something about the fact that the majority of drummers at tertiary level cant sing in tune or play piano - lets inform the music properly.

How is mentioning other musicians relevant? I believe you were the first to do so in presenting an argument for rhythmic independence - ...I dont actually disagree with you at all - but I wanted to point out that rhythmic intention is not a sole element - it relates to the rest of the music after all - it could be for instance that Mullers rhythmic independence is directly related to his phrasing -I dont know -maybe I'll ask him next time I see him.
I still maintain that if anything , I hear students struggle with harmonic sensibility - just no idea of voicing, tension and release and cadences - little concept of harmonic rhythm, phrasing, and the melodic syntax of Charlie Parker or John Coltrane- but this is only my perception after 20 odd years of teaching.. and that subjectivity arises only when we pull these things apart , as if they exist as a single component instead of paying more attention to the way individual musicians immanently integrate them.


"

[timothystevens]

captain said:

I still think talking about an 'Improvisation' degree is silly Tim.

Well that's okay, and you may be right, in the sense that putting boundaries around what one is to cover within three or four years may be more disciplining and ultimately more libearating for the graduate. For me however the study I've done of jazz has only taken me further and further away from the position I occupied when I started learning about it, which was that one day I planned to play like Herbie Hancock or Kenny Kirkland or someone. So now I refer to the music I play as 'improvised music' in preference to 'jazz', and while that could be taken only to compound the conspicuousness of the J word by sententiously avoiding it, perhaps too it can signal my misgivings about the idea of an integrated and teleological - hence dangerously exclusive - tradition.

[ironguts]

You know James Muller is a very good drummer, so is Ian Chaplin, both have great time. I did start on drums as a kid and love em to death. Muller transcribed heaps of Brecker when he was younger, that might have something to do with his time too.
There is a lot to be said for spending time/lessons with someone who plays a different instrument. It's been positive to me that I've given lessons to guitarists, drummers, sax etc. I've also learned of drummers, pianists, sax etc. Spreading it round is a good idea, find out as much as possible.
alimcg, I'm one of those drop outs actually! I lasted 1 and a bit years, I'm still thinking about becoming a full time Muso!
Tim, I'm with you on the study thing. I wanted to play Jazz too, but now I'd much rather be seen as an Improviser, not a Jazz musician.
It's interesting to me that most of the relevant development I've had has been outside of the Uni system. I have no degree, as my writing skills show I'm no academic. I have gotten information from the people I've worked with and lessons I've had. As I said, Mark Simmond was a biggy, but also people like Greg Sheehan, Grabowsky, Chaplin, Edie, John Rodgers ( what a brain). There is a wealth of information and talent on the Australian scene that can be tapped into outside the Uni system, if you want it just pick up the phone, it'll work out cheaper than a degree nowdays!

[ironguts]

Hey gator, just reading back and you're right about the "as if they exist as a single component instead of paying more attention to the way individual musicians immanently integrate them"
The thing about transcribing is that it shows this so strongly. Just playing the same notes or line as someone wont make you sound like them, or even sound good. Touch, placement/time, sound, tuning, articulation etc all play a part in the quality of the whole. Harmonic tension and release is beyond just a flat 6 resolving to a 5th or whatever, it's about placement of the time, sound, tuning, articulation etc as well. That's why just regurgitating the notes you think will work, wont work, because there is so much more to consider.
Most students struggle to play in one key let alone a string of changes, time needs to be spent 'owning' key centers before Giant Steps is approached. That doesn't mean just running up and down a major scale occasionally play a sharp 11 to be hip, it means understanding the 5 chord and it's implications, then the 4 etc.

[alimcg]

"alimcg, I'm one of those drop outs actually! I lasted 1 and a bit years, I'm still thinking about becoming a full time Muso!"

Smartarse. You knew what I meant.

"There is a lot to be said for spending time/lessons with someone who plays a different instrument. It's been positive to me that I've given lessons to guitarists, drummers, sax etc. I've also learned of drummers, pianists, sax etc. Spreading it round is a good idea, find out as much as possible."

Excellent point.

"...and similarly - we should do something about the fact that the majority of drummers at tertiary level cant sing in tune or play piano - lets inform the music properly. "

Certainly. I don't think there are any courses where drummers can avoid a year of piano, or aural etc, but yes, many fall way behind. I encourage all my students to learn at least some piano, and I believe that composing is a key step in developing your own sound and style. It's easier for drummers to avoid doing this, but guys like Tain, Jack and Tony have shown that drummers can write great tunes.

"What I.m saying here is that deconstructing music to work solely on one element whether it be sound , harmony or rhythm has its own inherent problems."

Yes but that's what unis do. To avoid that, do as guts did.

"I still maintain that if anything , I hear students struggle with harmonic sensibility - just no idea of voicing, tension and release and cadences - ..."

What about tension and release through rhythm? Listen to any Elvin Jones solo and you hear it.

Again, I don't really disagree with any of your ideas, but you still seem to not want to address rhythm directly. If we leave it to be developed just through ensemble work it may not develop any more than if harmony were just left to ensemble work. Yes, the good students will develop it, but what about the worst students or the slower developing - do we just forget about them? And I am talking about much more than time here. I have heard musicians who have good time, but struggle to join varying subdivisions together.

" - little concept of harmonic rhythm, phrasing, and the melodic syntax of Charlie Parker or John Coltrane-"

Of course, phrasing and rhythm go hand-in-glove. How about the rhythmic syntax of Parker and Coltrane. You'd be hard pressed to find a phrase of Parker's that doesn't have both melodic and rhythmic forward-movement.

[gator]

Although it doesnt hurt to know(as in hear) where the "right" notes are - take the tune to Satin Doll - as a set of notes its pretty ordinary with the exception maybe of the last 4 notes in the A - but when Ellingtons band plays it or Wes plays it -it swings its ass off. or Sonny playing "Im an ole Cowhand"..

[alimcg]

I'm not saying that rhythm should be taught out of context. But we need better ways of getting young players to think about phrasing, rhythmic variation, swing, groove, time feel, space, rhythmic interaction (not parroting). They're all connected and all important, and yes they should be worked on in ensembles, but a lot of guys don't know where to start, or don't even realise that they should start. There are a lot of young musicians who are quite talented, but have holes in their education that aren't addressed before uni.

[gator]

How about the rhythmic syntax of Parker and Coltrane?



..Thats right..they are the same.


Or addressed at Uni or after it. The only 'jazz education' I had until the age of 25 was a big band and an 'improv' class every two weeks. It didnt stop me from transcribing and rehearsing - though in reflection it would have been great to get some sage guidance on a few things(I still need it!) but I dont blame the institution..Maybe we are forgetting that playing this music is just hard work alot of the time -you get jack shit for it in terms of any other reward but the music itself .. and that ultimately we all do it because we have the choice to..


Hoarding a chip on your shoulder about that shit is going to get you nowhere....

[ironguts]

The sad thing is there are those drummers with shit house time too! Look at the guy with McCoy.
The guy with Pharaoh could at least play in time, but what a tasteless cunt, no rhythmic tension and release at all.
So many drummers, such little time.

[ironguts]

What is sintax? Is that kinda like the collection bowl at church??

[alimcg]

I don't think you could afford you're sintax guts.

[gator]

ironguts said:

What is sintax? Is that kinda like the collection bowl at church??

pay up Guts -C'mon!

What about tension and release through rhythm?

I wasnt criticizing Elvins cadences was I?