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Post by aj on May 4, 2009 20:03:47 GMT 10
Actually I thought it was crap too. Really, really dreadful. I was deeply disappointed. After really enjoying both Haden's other appearances, I thought this was a shocking letdown. Stop being diplomatic Tim.....what did you really think? |
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Post by captain on May 4, 2009 22:21:21 GMT 10
I know this is horrible to say but it comforts me a bit to hear this criticism because I missed that show and my housemate wouldn't shut up about how amazing it was. Sounds like I might not have been into either, but who knows. I'm sure Bill's working trio was ultimately more satisfying but I missed that too!!
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Post by alimcg on May 4, 2009 22:46:13 GMT 10
I thought Bill's trio set started of great. The first tune especially was just spot-on, but I felt that the set kind of fell flat a little way through. It was all a bit to much the same. A bit too nice perhaps. BBC opening was great, and I quite liked that they only did 25mins or so. Left me wanting more instead of feeling overdone, which can so often be the case. Perhaps if I'd only heard the first 25 mins of Bill's trio I'd feel differently about that too! Still, a very good concert.
Didn't see any of Mr Haden's other sets, so I shan't comment.
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Post by alimcg on May 4, 2009 22:47:46 GMT 10
Didn't see any of Mr Haden's other sets, so I shan't comment. I mean, other than the opening night concert which I commented on elsewhere. |
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Post by timothystevens on May 5, 2009 9:41:32 GMT 10
Hey, what happened to Gianni?
Good to have different points of view, right? Don't self-edit for the sake of people who disagree...
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Post by giannim on May 5, 2009 17:27:01 GMT 10
Hey Tim,I deleted my post because it was a real kneejerk reaction to criticsm of 3 musicians I love, and I wasn't even at the concert! I thought that really didn't give me the right to talk about the gig. I still wish we could talk a little more intelligently about ideas, without resorting to 'that was shit etc'. Surely no musician or band finds that elusive magic every performance, because we are humans who feel different all the time. To me that is the beauty of art, that the search for that magic never ends no matter who you are.Opinions of a gig are always wide and varied, but if it touched somebody then it was not shit for them. Different opinions of music are wonderful, but getting personal about it seems like a a waste of time (high school band comaprisons).By personal I mean attacking the musicians. Of course how we feel about music is all personal!!
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Post by trumpetguy on May 5, 2009 19:11:04 GMT 10
nah, it was shyte.
Re high school band, that is an accurate description. Charlie (and he has been one of my heroes for over 30 years), in particular, did not attempt to play "with" the other 2. In the opening tune he struggled to walk 4 beats to the bar in time. At first I thought that he may have been struggling due to a heavy workload (which is no excuse - everyone at the concert paid $80 to be there and deserved to hear 100% commitment). I was hoping to hear Bill Frisell (or is it Fryzle) play more but he did not appear to be given the opportunity to do so. The trio was under prepared (reading charts of tunes one would assume they should know).
Most of all, there was a distinct feeling that Charlie was doing his shtik, no real sense of connection, interplay, action, reaction, empathy, etc, etc.
I don't think it is unreasonable to make criticisms of concerts like this - after all it is a criticism of an event, not the individuals as people or their long and distinguished careers.
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Post by timothystevens on May 5, 2009 20:31:22 GMT 10
I said 'I thought it was crap' becasue that is the extent of what I feel permitted to say. I can't say it was crap for everyone else, and I shouldn't say that because I don't know. But to my ears the playing was rough, unfocused, and lacking in conviction, and there was little to no ensemble sense in what went on. Ethan Iverson is not, by far, my favourite piano player, and I admit that I never expect very much from him. But Charlie Haden could barely play in time, or didn't bother, and although Bill Frisell made some noble attempts to bring things together there wasn't much to be done. When they began to play their opening selection, 'Wahoo', I actually thought it was a joke and they were trying to make us believe they thought we weren't hip, before tearing into something really sensational. I was wrong, unless they really thought we weren't hip (and hence couldn't see the point in bothering).
I stress that I loved both the Liberation Music Orchestra and Quartet West – these performances were really affecting, honestly impressive, and truly enjoyable. But the trio let me down.
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Post by captain on May 5, 2009 20:57:25 GMT 10
I thought quartet west was crap but loved the way charlie played that night. Once I could hear him!
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gator
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Post by gator on May 5, 2009 21:27:26 GMT 10
I wasn't there -I really dig Charlie and I've seen him play with Metheny twice and The "real" Liberation Orchestra - and all I can say is he seemed more or less the same with 4tet West (which i kind of enjoyed bits of)but- couldnt help wondering how much better the Old and New Dreams gig he talked about in Melbourne would've been all those years ago. Still its great to see and hear him play. He is of course older and a little more shaky and more pernickety about some things.
The majority of people I have talked to thought the Friday nite gig was great - but those who didn't were all Jazz musicians. I think that says a great deal... ...about perception. A great band of unknowns could play the gig of their lives and never be 'heard' - whereas for some the reputation erases all present flaws and indiscretions..
having said that I've seen too many lame throw together bands at Jazz festivals - without enough thought given to the sensibilities of the players involved - which is why I avoided that one - none of these players are blow-asses who simply turn on a chop fest to please the punters - each player is conceptually important in the history of the music - Bill and Charlie are anyway- its kind of a travesty to lump them together to play real book tunes in a concert -
The BBC were a terrific outfit although they have played together before - once.
I liked Frisells trio gig quite alot.. - but it gradually got a bit soporific - too 'beautiful' in a static sort of way - and maybe too intimate for the sound in the Forum...the rhythm section were incredibly subtle - and alot of that was lost in the wash.
BTW - thank you x 10 for the ticket Stevo...
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Post by timothystevens on May 5, 2009 22:42:53 GMT 10
BTW - thank you x 10 for the ticket Stevo... Bless you - you're welcome. But 'a lot' is two words. Remember that. |
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Post by aj on May 5, 2009 23:16:13 GMT 10
couldnt help wondering how much better the Old and New Dreams gig he talked about in Melbourne would've been all those years ago. Actually, it was a disappointment. The band sounded tired ; they arrived the day of the gig, and Cherry had been travelling something like 40 hours to get here from Sweden. It was great to hear them and all ; but I got to hear them a year or 2 later, in Chicago and NY, and got to hear just how exciting they could be. |
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on May 6, 2009 1:03:08 GMT 10
Those who didn't think the Friday nite gig was great were all Jazz musicians ... for some the reputation erases all present flaws and indiscretions.. I've seen too many lame throw together bands at Jazz festivals - without enough thought given to the sensibilities of the players involved ... Bill and Charlie are conceptually important in the history of the music ... it's kind of a travesty to lump them together to play real book tunes in a concert I'm interested in these three points you made Gator. I'm not a jazz musician and I knew about the reputation of these guys, if only via the publicists' blurbs and doing an interview with Charlie Haden, but I still thought the interaction was missing and there seemed to be no really strong desire on Haden's part to converse musically with the other two. Frisell seemed, in both his Melbourne gigs, to be pretty aware of what other players were doing. I suppose I'm just saying that the vibe was not that hard to pick up. Your point about players being lumped together is a good one. Surely the key thing is to pick players who will work together and make something new and exciting out of the opportunity. Isn't that what Wangaratta is renowned for doing well? But does that mean the Newport combo that MIJF replicated this time was not a good idea in the first place? Following on from that, can you expand on it being a travesty to lump them together to play real book tunes in a concert? Musicians will know exactly what you mean, but I'd like to understand that better. |
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dodgy
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Post by dodgy on May 6, 2009 1:13:25 GMT 10
Surely no musician or band finds that elusive magic every performance... To pick on Gianni's point, and on AJ's that the band sounded tired at the Old and New Dreams gig, isn't it realistic and reasonably likely for touring musicians to get to gigs feeling pretty spaced out or jet lagged or just plain dog tired after hours travelling or lots of gigs in succession and hardly any rehearsal time, if any? I'm just wondering if it is fair to expect a rip-snorter of a performance every time, though the patrons obviously deserve a return for their money. Maybe Charlie Haden had a toothache, or his bedtime milk had been spiked by out-of-work Bush administration heavies. |
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gator
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Post by gator on May 6, 2009 7:12:30 GMT 10
couldnt help wondering how much better the Old and New Dreams gig he talked about in Melbourne would've been all those years ago. Actually, it was a disappointment. The band sounded tired ; they arrived the day of the gig, and Cherry had been travelling something like 40 hours to get here from Sweden. It was great to hear them and all ; but I got to hear them a year or 2 later, in Chicago and NY, and got to hear just how exciting they could be. Ha - there you go. high expectations somewhat thwarted by logistics..again. So did you mean Frisell, Haden and Iverson played at Newport.. I didnt know that - was that on your blog dodgy? Was it a success? As I said - many non-jazz musicians and students adored that gig - and I wasnt there - but I have some 30 odd years of listening to a fair number of festival gigs where the combination of 'greats' turns out to be far less than the sum of individuals involved...but it often serves a purpose in terms of audience appeal - even when to my ears it has failed musically. And it often seems to be where you have conceptual stylists whose playing has a unique and non-generic language. Someone like Bill Evans struggled through the the late 60's and 70's after the demise of Scott La Faro because he couldnt find a bass player who could satisfy his particular harmonic and ensemble demands. I saw Stan Getz basically 'fire' Gil Goldstein on stage in Amsterdam years ago-two extraordinary players who couldnt get along - Another band I saw in the Netherlands years ago with Scofield, Eddie Gomez ,Adam Nussbaum , and Lou Soloff was like that too - it just didnt work at all because the players seemed unhappy and uncomfortable- because it wasnt a band - I also remember being lumped with a well-known NY trumpet player at a festival who wasnt at all happy about having to play a bunch of standards that were in another key (for the vocalist)- it wasnt rehearsed or thought through at all. I happen to think this music (as opposed to the hype) is all about bands and not just individual virtuosi - that individual players are propelled forward and upward by being in great bands. There have been exceptions too - some of the collaborations I've seen- particularly at Wang have been terrific. My point about throwing people together to perform real book tunes is more applicable now than ever I think in this music. More musicians are developing conceptual work under the umbrella of Jazz but specifically shaping their own playing toward those concepts - which while it is not always exclusive(Frisell has performed with a great many musicians from varying backgrounds in the context of his own projects) ) needs to be considered carefully when making up ensembles that are doing one off gigs - often without rehearsal or having not played together before - and when playing hackneyed standard tunes - dealing with jet -lag, and all of the other variables - all you get are unhappy or ambivalent musicians who cant wait for the gig to be over. Unprofessional? Maybe. But isn't an aesthetic that may have formed their playing and reputation in the first place also questionable then? Many contemporary musicians arent jamming on a common repertoire on gigs the way they were 50 or more years ago - so its more the exception to the rule to find a band cooking on Broadway tunes or Bebop or whatever these days . |
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