Undercutting - my two bob's worth

[kingkazoo]

Recently I had a conversation with a brass player of renown, and the topic turned to a certain local drummer (let's call him Plugger), and the general view that he undercuts other musicians looking for a gig. We agreed that undercutting was not a good thing in Australia's small jazz community, but then a new thought struck me. Perhaps $40 is all he's worth, and he is merely asking what he sees as a fair market value. How many of you out there would so honestly appraise your own talents relative to the Australian dollar? Free-market forces... capitalism reigns (for now).

Then again, maybe he's just doing the shit gigs nobody else wants.

[kimba]

I think it depends on the gig and the venue - if the venue is known to pay $100 a player, then taking anything less is pretty poor behaviour in business terms -- once a publican knows he/she can pay less, that sets a sort of precedent.

I see it here in Japan all the time, where amazing players play for free, or even pay to play (yes seriously). It's because japan sees music as a 'shumi' (hobby) and not something you do for a living. I've spent the last two years bargaining with venues to get even half of what we routinely got in Oz, and then all it takes is for one schmoo to come along and agree to less for it to be an up-hill battle.

Usually, this hasn't affected me too much cause I can bring numbers and that's all they care about, but when your own drummer undercuts you, you gotta do what I did (cut him loose).

[kingkazoo]

I'm all for good musicians getting paid well. And people who always bring a crowd should be paid well. A question is, just because a guy can hustle a gig, does that imply that he should be paid well, or should he have to back it up with quality playing or crowd numbers?

If a guy (or band) is playing poorly to nobody, do they deserve $100 each?

If your music and crowd numbers justify good money, then you should push for it. If not, enjoy the fact that you're playing at all.

Of course all this goes out the window for corporate gigs. Screw the dirty buggers for all they're worth!

[kimba]

Obviously people who are awesome should be paid accordingly, but if you're playing beautiful sounds to an empty room...well it doesn't take a genius to realise that it's not economically viable for the venue.

For example - I'm a decent muso and I put on a good show - lots of people come and therefore I demand my slice of pie. I know that there are many far more wicked players who aren't getting paid what I am. But usually, they're practising while I'm hustling and promoting. Hence why they're awesome and I'm OK! and hence why they're playing to low numbers.

Whether musos deserve what they get paid is another thing! (I can't tell you how my blood boils every time we do a corporate where we cart al our own gear in and are trying to soundcheck when the freakin' cover band starts playing Jesses girl over the top of us...and you can beat they're tripling our salary...)

If you can bring the numbers, and really, a totally shit band will rarely do that, then you should be holding out your hand...I'm never short of sidemen and I know it ain't cause I'm a great improviser!

[tam]

Undercutting other musicians is not cool. If you do that, you're lowering the standard rate of pay for ALL musicians and essentially, screwing yourself over too...
(oh, how we need a proper union... sing it, everybody!)

We need to make a stand and just not do gigs for shit money. Do it for your fellow musicians.

[Baked Bean]

Totally agree tam... if some of us are prepared to accept substandard wages it will push all music performance wages/conditions lower...

[lach]

What really shits me is that some venues, such as the Barley Corn in collingwood, gain revenue solely by ripping off shit musicians. Once apon a time I played there and quickly realised that not only were they not going to pay us anything but that they also were not going to give us any beer or pay for a door person. The reason that this establishment is still in business is because crappy garage bands are stoked to play their annual gig and also bring all their friends and family. I realise that these kind of venues are mostly rock orientated but surely it effects the rates of all musicians to a small degree.

[kimba]

Oh we have a music union -- if you can afford the few hundred bucks a year. Once this guy at a venue in mornington decided he didn`t feel like paying us for a gig...I called the musician`s union and they wanted lots of cash...I asked what they`d do and he said `you know, call them, hassle them, threaten them with small claims court.`

I thought buggar that -- I went back to the venue myself and after a negotiation that went nowhere with the prick, I lured him out onto the floor packed with customers and made a jolly good scene. Had the money in my hand within 5 minutes..

But it`d be great if we had something affordable and proactive...for sure.

[Baked Bean]

Its really depressing that it has to come to that kimba before someone gets paid for their services... totally impressed by that though!!

[thierryf]

Having done thousands of gigs for roud 50 bucks [sometimes less] i'm feeling a bit " broke " and responsible or . However . Rehersal spaces cost more than that for a small group. so reherse. Or if you can get a "good " player to play that gig with you , may be its worth a 100 buck lesson .
Whats Crazy is that the working mainstream through recent changes are about to fully realise a workplace payment system that musicians have {happilly?} endured for ages {if not eterinity}. Iwonde rhow thats gonna go.

[ladylex]

You know, I love it how people expect to pay their lawyer at least $220 per hour. But when it comes to a musician, punters will back away. Who or what can determine the intellectual property and its worth? Musicians bring and generate a great deal more happiness in this world than any lawyer any day.

I hate undercutting. I hate how it discourages the community from paying proper homage to an artist. I also hate krap performers undercutting our awesome musos. This is not a black or white situation. :/

[alimcg]

Yes Tam, a proper union. Without it you still can have some people feeling that they've been undercut because of differing standards. If musician X thinks they're worth $100/hr and then musician Y comes along and only wants $80 then muso X is still going to be peeved.

On kimba's tale above, I might just add that going through the small claims tribunal is not such a hard thing to do yourself. Just fill out the forms and supply any supporting documents and the fee for the claim is paid by the person you're claiming against (assuming that you have a valid claim that is upheld).

[kimba]

Yeahm but when you have three other musos who didn't get paid because some lowlife decides that he doesn't feel like paying, who can afford to wait that long for small-claims.

When that sitch happened, my primary need was to pay my musos and pay my rent!

[alimcg]

That's not really what I was saying. Small-claims is just an option when all else has failed.

[aka]

Musicians (of all styles) are effectively small businesses...you need to organise things in such a way that crooks have the least opportunity to screw you...have a standard form simple contract signed before you do the gig....if they won't sign...don't play...
I would think a good activity for the MJC or similar would be to create such a document that musos could amend as requirements change, but keep the basic obligations the same..

tax also comes into it.....keep all your receipts and invoices..even if you only get 20 bucks from Mr Shady you can claim all your travel, meal costs, car maintenance, petrol, instrument maintenance etc...