What the F**k Happened to Black Popular Music?

[isaacs]

www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=21243

I offer this article for discussion.

Also very interesting and pertinent is the link from the bottom of that page that leads to 25 pages of mostly fascinating, spirited discussion of the article at the All About Jazz forum with a wide range of positions articulated.

We have 250 members here at Ozjazzforum.

How exciting it would be if far more of them were willing to actually post: and moreover to post intelligent, provocative opinions carefully argued rather than the juvenile and/or poisonous drivel we have been seeing so much of here.

[alimcg]

First up, let me volunteer to be the man to pop a cap in Eminem's arse.

I can see where Kenny's coming from with a lot of his comments, and his reference to the possible pointlessness of learning your instrument makes sense on a financial level, but I'm sure on that point most fair-dinkum musicians would play whether or not the money was good. That's probably proven by the fact that most of us here are serious about our instrument but have very little to show for it financially.

I think that the distance black music in America has drifted is nicely demonstrated by the nature of R'n'B these days. Essentially what kids today know as r'n'b has nothing to do with where the name came from. There are a handful of guys who show some respect to the past (like John Legend's obvious debt to guys like Donny Hathaway), but most r'n'b now has neither rhythm or blues.

[ramirez]

I have read all 25 pages of the discussion from the above link. It predictably degenerated into a pro-Rap camp VS the'real musicians' type of argument in which by the end, both sides had way too much passion and hardly anything interesting to add.

Well, I'm a musician who plays and listens to a whole lot of different things and as such I can only offer my personal opinion. I really don't care if it's perceived as right or wrong (or whatever) and I certainly have no intention in converting/changing anyone's mind.

I think most Rap sucks. I make no apologies.

I know that in one way or another I am biased. I understand that everyone's entitled to their opinion and that there's ultimately no right or wrong but I'd like to nevertheless list why I THINK it sucks.

My views are entirely based on my musical opinions and tastes and unlike much of the argument in the above link, I'm not gonna get into the moral/social side of it.

1. It's rhythmically boring. It's simply not funky.

Compared to Sly, James Brown, Stevie (or so many of the not so well known musicians of the 60's and 70's whom you can hear on countless compilations) it seems to me to be lifeless.

I will not fall into the trap of favouring (for no valid reason) so-called REAL INSTRUMENTS. I don't care if rhythms are played on a drum machine or not - if it's funky, cool! (I use the term 'funky' as defined by the very best in Soul, R&B and Funk from the 60's & 70's, and as judged by history).

I can't dance to save my life but when I hear 'Superbad', 'I Wish', 'I Wanna Take You Higher...' or any one of those old classics, my body just moves. I don't know why! I just do. A lot people might point out that there was also a whole lot of crap in those two 'classic' decades. My reply to that is: "SO?!" it doesn't diminish the power or the beauty of the 'good stuff'.

So much of the backing tracks of Rap is just a boring, monotomous, unimaginative one-bar-loop and (I know I said I wouldn't knock drum machines) because it's all programmed, the interaction with and between the other instruments or other sounds (and even the element of surprise) sounds neither natural nor spontaneous.

I've listened and listened to a lot Rap and for the life of me I can't hear any link to its (supposedly) Funk/R&b roots. Not that it matters too much I guess but I thought It interesting enough to point it out.

2. It's all about the lyrics it seems...

Well, to me the actual music is nothing more than a soundtrack (backgrond noise) if you will to, mostly, mediocre crap that likes to think of itself as poetry.

I'll concede that maybe the musician in me feels uneasy with all the attention given to the "bitches and the ho's and the motherf****rs and not enough (any?) to the actual musical content.

Is it funky? Is it interesting harmonically? i.e. Are there cool/different melodies, chords and sounds being used? or if it is mostly the same old chords, are they being used imaginatively? and in the end (and most importantly), does it make me feel anything? Anything at all...

Well, when I listen to it I don't feel shit. It bores me to tears.


Many of the advocates for Rap that I've met seem to be prety keen to be seen as legitimate 'artists'. Some also seem desperate to be accepted by 'real musos' pointing out for example that turntabling can be extremely difficult and it requires talent and skill and years of practice, etc, etc... So does making a good coffee or flying a plane. Are they art? I don't know and anyway, who gives a f**k!! All I'm saying is that I've only ever heard two dudes who were really good at turntabling and even then they didn't make feel shit. I felt as much emotion and excitement as when I hear some new and quirky mobile ring-tone.

I don't subscribe to the whole 'Louis Armstrong hated Be Bop', 'Parents hated Elvis', etc... Frankly I wish I could think of better examples to illustrate my point that a lot people seem to assume (certainly in the 'allabout jazz' forum) that people cling to the old styles and love to knock a new thing and that say, in thirty years' time, Rap will well and truly be an established artform. Well, we'll see I guess...

I'd like to say that despite how all this sounds, I am neither a purist nor an elitist. I always look at my emotional reaction to and interaction with the music as the ultimate test.

I understand that peoples' taste in music is dictated by many different factors, including which music they've been exposed to or grown up with and therefore we all listen for different things.

Ultimately and in my humble and honest opinion I believe that, in a very general way, a lot of kids today seem to lack the patience and maybe the, I don't know, the tools? to emotionally approach and check out anything (any type of art I guess) whether it be an 'art film' full of long shots and slow sequences where you're not being bombarded by a hundred images an hour and MTV style editing, a statue somewhere or a Billie holiday tune..

In that sense I keep thinking that Rap is an apt sign of the times. I'm a romantic sucker, I know! I still believe in making music for love and fun regardless of financial reward (Idiot!)

And with Rap?? Where's the love??
















Many of the advocates for Rap that I've met seem to be pretty keen to be seen as legitimate 'artists'. Some also seem desperate to be accepted by 'real musos' pointing out for example that turntabling can be extremely difficult and it requires talent and skill and years of practice, etc, etc... So does making a good coffee or flying a plane. Are they art? I don't know and anyway, who gives a f**k!! All I'm saying is that I've only ever heard two dudes who were really good at turntabling and even then they didn't make feel shit. I felt as much emotion and excitement as when I hear some new and quirky mobile ring-tone.

I don't subscribe to the whole 'Louis Armstrong hated Be Bop', 'Parents hated Elvis', etc... Frankly I wish I could think of better examples to illustrate my point that a lot people seem to assume (certainly in the 'allabout jazz' forum) that people love to knock a new thing and that in say twenty years' time Rap will well and truly an established artform. Well, we'll see I guess...

[ramirez]

Sorry about the last two repeated paragraphs. A typo...

[isaacs]

Ramirez, you win the award for taking the most trouble over a post of anyone in 5 years! Whether we agree with your ideas or not, you must be congratulated for so lucidly framing your views and sharing them with us. Thank you! Keep posting.

[jamie]

Nice one Ramirez....no gig last night?

I've got to say, I like some of the rappers. Not the ones who just rap about bitches, limo's, guns and smoking weed, but guys like Eminem and Scribe. These two rap about their lives and rhythmically they are bad asses. Has anyone heard Steve Colemans "Way of the Cipher"? Jules put me onto it - and it rocks.

[tam]

personally, i think it's pretty closed-minded to bag an ENTIRE genre... I've said it before and i'll say it again: there's good music and bad music (and of course THAT is subjective too).

i've heard rappers freestyling live and using hipper rhythms and phrasing than a whole heap of other "legitimate" musicians - AND weaving a cool story. Not half bad to see.

I saw De La Soul a few years ago who were talking about hip-hop being for everyone. And to be a woman you DON'T have to be a bitch or a ho. Pretty enlightening as they were one of the bigger groups in the 80's who made it big and helped kick off the artform...
And it's about honesty - they also pointed out that you can't do around preaching that living on the street is so hard when you're covered head to toe in bling and living in a mansion in LA.
Improvising, phrasing, rhythm, telling a story..... sounds a bit like the stuff i like in my fave jazz artists....

I'd probably go talk to some people who DO like it and try to find out why. Maybe you've just been unlucky enough to hear some of the dodgier groups.

[alimcg]

Yeah, there are certainly some great rap artists out there, but not many of the great ones really get heard above the dross. Jamie hit the nail on the head - there are some guys who are rhythmic bad-asses. Unfortunately most of what you hear in Australia is drivel. While ramirez used a pretty broad brushstroke saying "I think most rap sucks," when you listen to the rap that's most readily available in Australian society, it does suck.

We should however, thank rappers for bringing a lot more bikinis and hotpants to Saturday morning TV!

[ramirez]

As I said, I make no apologies. I'm not trying to antagonize anyone nor to make new friends. I'm just teliing it like I feel it.

Although I didn't bag an entire genre (I believe my original statement was 'MOST Rap sucks') I think you're right Tam, I'm sure that there isn't one style or type of music thorughout the world that doesn't have some good stuff in it but frankly, I'm a little sick of that attitude and I see it as part of the problem.

As someone pointed out in the 'allaboutjazz' discussion, it (this attitude) shows a "cultural laziness and a lack of discernment...".

As a musician and an artist, I see part of my role as always striving for the highest, the deepest; to make sure that everything that I say, counts - even the rests. I believe (for me) that sometimes I just have to bite the bullet and dis something. As the guy in the other discussion said: "I strongly disagree that one's personal taste can somehow impart, replace, or infer genuine quality. I believe that some things (performances, styles, artists, techniques, musical genres, etc.) are intrinsically "better" than others, and that our cultural health depends on our eventual recognition of that fact".

Would some of the established Rap 'artists' and also some of the up and coming but as yet unknown rappers sound the same if the promised rewards for their work was simply the joy of creating as opposed to $$$, Coke, ho's, limos, videoclips - ultimately I guess, pop worship?

I'm not saying that I'm a pure soul individual who offers his modest artistic output to the creator and the rest of the time I'm not concerned with minor earthly details, etc... I'm just wondering if the things that I dislike in MOST Rap are a direct result of the culture (lack thereof) that it seems to promote. I'd be interested to hear someone else's point of view.

And thanks for the tip Jamie, I'll check out 'Way Of THe Cipher'.

[alison]

I absolutely loved Kenny Drew Jr's article, and I applaud his bravery in posting his opinion in the way he did...I haven't checked out the aftermath yet, but I'm sure he will have people both supporting him and attacking him mercilessly.

I am a bit mixed on the subject myself...I personally enjoy some hip hop stuff as well. I used to really enjoy Eminem (especially his first 2 albums) but now I'm getting a bit tired of his subject material (all he basically raps about is his on-again-off-again marriage to Kim and their child), but I really dig rhythmically what he does. I bought Kanye West's latest album the other day, and again, I really like it- but i have to say that partly due to the music samples, not just the rap.... The artist Common is quite amazing as well, and doesn't just talk about bitches and hos...

However, I was watching TV the other day and was absolutely flabbergasted when I saw a new 50 Cent Playstation 2 game called Bullet Proof. I actually thought the commercial was a joke, but I was wrong. Basically 50 Cent is the centre of the game, and he is going around shooting people... UNBELIEVABLE! Kids (as well as adults) are playing these games, and people wonder why incidents like Columbine happen...

[plunk]

R. you blog-god!
I too found Kennys blog courageous and thought provoking.
But I get nervous when a musician such as Kenny Drew describes music as having to have melody,harmony and rhythm in order to be recognised as music ...whether its just an anecdote from his student days, or something he truly believes. How one defines these elements is so utterly subjective - take for instance, most of John Coltranes music in the last 8 or so years of his life - theres no "changes" on 'interstellar space'. What he fails to make clear, is that for most of us , we are attracted to the way the elements in the music combine, whatever they maybe, and in whatever capacity they appear.It also is worth pointing out, that many jazz players are also guilty of being as unimaginative and lame with their concepts - but particularly tone and texture, as anyone else , including Rap artists.
I agree with Tam about the need to look past style into reason and intention. To be honest , for me the vast majority of rap music sucks big time in all departments - because it relies so heavily on so little and the musicality of many of these artists is questionable. But then again- there is an almost Pythagorean effort to use this music to promote modes of behaviour and attitude that have huge social implications and help to perpetuate its market - and its effectiveness is obvious...so maybe this is about ethics and not aesthetics.
In which case all popular music should be considered on its merits.

[lewis]

I agree Alison. 50 cent took nine bullets and was lucky enough to survive, and what does he do? He goes round glorifying that kind of a lifestyle with his "music", and this game......INSANITY!! Hey kids, be like Uncle 50.
In relation to the topic at hand, i can only comment based upon my fairly limited exposure to rap, and fairly heavy exposure to music...sorry....i mean art....forms..of other kinds.
Whoa...i just paused to read Kenny's article, that's really putting it out there.
I agree that one should not pigeonhole an entire genre, but essentially i agree with with Kenny.
I have always felt that the popular music scene was like an ocean of crap with scattered islands of hope out there, and that if you went for a sail on the right day, at the right time you could bask on it's beaches....but now..the popular ice caps are melting into the sea engulfing many of those islands, to the point that even when you do find an island, it's shores are usually awash with rap.....sorry...crap.
But in all seriousness, i have heard some rap that has made me move, but very little, and the few that do have anything to offer lyrics wise...well i'd like to see how many kids would buy their albums if they got rid of the bling and the bitches yo!
Thanks for bringing such a topic to the table, i'm going to check out Way of the Cipher, thanks Johnnie! We'll debate over Outkast at a later date.

[Kenny]

I first reacted to the Drew article with broad agreement. But the vociferous debate at AAJ and organissimo has given me pause for thought: Who is he/we/anyone to condemn a whole genre of music?

However ... but ...

The niceties of the musical debate pale in my mind in the face of the relentless, hateful misogyny and violence of it all.

Those who would say these issues need to be judged in context should try seeing the issue through eyes of a parent of a five-year-old who, in the absence of ABC Kids on Saturday mornings, occasionally strays on to a "music" video show.

[plunk]

"Those who would say these issues need to be judged in context should try seeing the issue through eyes of a parent of a five-year-old who, in the absence of ABC Kids on Saturday mornings, occasionally strays on to a "music" video show."

and there is that too............

[lewis]

"Those who would say these issues need to be judged in context should try seeing the issue through eyes of a parent of a five-year-old who, in the absence of ABC Kids on Saturday mornings, occasionally strays on to a "music" video show."

good point...