oj
New Member
Posts: 15 
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Post by oj on Dec 30, 2006 18:09:35 GMT 10
Kenny,
You've missed the point of my post.
I do not 'share a profound cultural cringe' with Pettman, and I did not say I prefer American jazz over Australian jazz.
What I did say is that Pettman has the right to express his views.
If the 'insiders' in this forum don't like what he says they have the choice of ignoring his comments. Or better still use a bit a intelligence and engaged him in a conversation and actually discuss the music. I guess that would be asking a bit too much.
The comments I made about the 'small minded' muso's who post here still stand. It's interesting to note that the successful musicians in the local scene who are members of this forum never post any comments.
AJ - thanks for calling me a troll. Obviously you don't know who I am, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment. I guess the comments hit home.
Punter - my comments are just as boring as some of the rubbish you've contributed.
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Post by Kenny on Dec 30, 2006 18:23:14 GMT 10
Kenny, I did not say I prefer American jazz over Australian jazz. I didn't say you did. Pettman can make her comments as much as she wants, but this being an internet bulletin board she must expect reactions. And to me anyone who states Australian players would only return home if they had failed overseas is full of cultural cringe. |
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Post by Kenny on Dec 30, 2006 18:39:55 GMT 10
AJ - thanks for calling me a troll. Obviously you don't know who I am, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment. Classic comment from an anon poster! ;D |
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Post by aj on Dec 30, 2006 19:20:38 GMT 10
AJ - thanks for calling me a troll. Obviously you don't know who I am, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment. I guess the comments hit home. Well if you weren't anonymous, I guess I WOULD know who you were ! I doubt that it would change my view that your previous post was a 'troll', ie designed to provoke a response via insults. I note that you now refer to some 'successful' musicians on the local scene ; your previous post implied that there weren't any ! (Perhaps not in those words, but the inference is there in the suggestion that any musician who has worked or toured overseas but returned to live in Australia must be a failure). |
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Post by Kenny on Dec 30, 2006 19:34:33 GMT 10
Or better still use a bit a intelligence and engaged him in a conversation and actually discuss the music. I guess that would be asking a bit too much. This highlights for me one of the quirky things about these kind of forums. Believe it or not, I reckon that's what aj, myself and others are doing. But the tone is very conversational, like in a bar. EXCEPT throwaway comments are written down. Pettman would have us believe she didn't really write what she did - or, at least, the inferences therein were not intended. But it IS written down, so we can go back, take a look, and say, "Hold on a minute ..." |
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Post by vickibonet on Dec 30, 2006 22:51:40 GMT 10
Forum posts read as well thought out, carefully written prose will inevitably frustrate.
If I read a post from five years ago I'm surprised by what i said about____ ? or to be more precise, what came out of my head at that moment in time.
People change their thinking, frequently. oj, pettman and all of us here prove that often. The most brilliant drummer who ever lived is Paul Motion the next it's Felix Bloxom or neither. But, the sunset today over Western Port bay was more beautiful than my favourite Rothko, and I'd rather think about that.
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Post by ironguts on Dec 31, 2006 10:35:22 GMT 10
Hi there, been distracted lately. but ready for it now. Re musos moving os, here's my 2 cents worth. As far as gaining insight to Music and musicians overseas, a stint living either in Europe or US would of course broaden your musical experience and might even give you more chances to see a diversity of 'top' US and Euro artists, mainly based on a per capita basis. There is something that is better about seeing these artists live as apposed to just on record, same goes for here. The whole thing of the measure of success of an artist by how well they do os is just such bullshit. The perception that if someone has lived in NYC for x years and has played with y and z, that they are successful is, to me, not where it's at. I've had the chance to play with many fine 'International' artists but do not regard this as why I am successful. My success is not financial, thats for sure, it's definately not wide international acclaim. I feel that my success is a satisfaction that I have developed as an artist in my scene, being influenced by, and influencing those around me. I have developed intense musical relationships with musicians here in this country that ARE as good as anywhere, and I believe we have created music that is recognizable on its own terms as something other than US or Euro jazz/music. I feel no need to prove myself by living os and making it on a scene that is in essence no different to here. Read the interview with Barney McAll at www.jazz.org.au . As an Artist that has taken that road I think he puts it well. |
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Post by vickibonet on Dec 31, 2006 15:23:55 GMT 10
Hi there, been distracted lately. but ready for it now. Re musos moving os, here's my 2 cents worth. As far as gaining insight to Music and musicians overseas, a stint living either in Europe or US would of course broaden your musical experience and might even give you more chances to see a diversity of 'top' US and Euro artists, mainly based on a per capita basis. There is something that is better about seeing these artists live as apposed to just on record, same goes for here. The whole thing of the measure of success of an artist by how well they do os is just such bullshit. The perception that if someone has lived in NYC for x years and has played with y and z, that they are successful is, to me, not where it's at. I've had the chance to play with many fine 'International' artists but do not regard this as why I am successful. My success is not financial, thats for sure, it's definately not wide international acclaim. I feel that my success is a satisfaction that I have developed as an artist in my scene, being influenced by, and influencing those around me. I have developed intense musical relationships with musicians here in this country that ARE as good as anywhere, and I believe we have created music that is recognizable on its own terms as something other than US or Euro jazz/music. I feel no need to prove myself by living os and making it on a scene that is in essence no different to here. Read the interview with Barney McAll at www.jazz.org.au . As an Artist that has taken that road I think he puts it well. I agree Mr Ironguts, but I'd go further: living (not tourism) in any different culture broadens your life experience. Perhaps that's what you're saying. In another lifetime, I worked with 'profile' artists but doubt anyone here would know any of the work (thank God for small mercies and stage names) but what does that mean? Nothing - but if I was still interested in performing live music in public it would still mean nothing. The past has past. Now is more important than where you were last week wherever you are. |
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Post by punter on Jan 1, 2007 21:50:17 GMT 10
yes and there's another important measure of success not mentioned in this thread: the degree to which an artist contributes to the culture which initially nurtured them.
tinkler is an important case in point; he would be a successful in-demand player where ever he chooses to live and the fact that he chooses to live in australia has, in my opinion, had a real impact on our music and art culture. much moreso than if he had chosen to live in nyc and come home for the occasional visit.
there are a whole list of other players who have been incredibly influential and important in building up the vibrant scene we now enjoy. some of them are mentioned in this barney mc call quote, and you're wrong as usual oj, some of them do post on this forum.
"There is this modern approach creeping in and a more Australian sensibility is becoming apparent. Andrea Keller and the way she plays and composes is very different and distinctive. The work Paul Grabowsky has been doing the last 15 years. The Necks, Mike Nock, Phil Slater, Scott Tinkler. The list goes on. There is so much great stuff happening in Australia I wonder whether people need to leave. I mean leave, yes, travel yes, experience the vast world. But things are changing fast and I sense a growing movement in Australia that is a force to be reckoned with. I have sort of become entrenched here so it’s more difficult to leave but it seems there is a vital Australian music developing at home."
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Post by cartman on Jan 2, 2007 5:58:09 GMT 10
yeah yeah yeah whatever dudes......if i was artistic director id give money to ironguts & chef then do this  happy new year guys |
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Post by marksiks on Jan 2, 2007 6:43:06 GMT 10
hmmm..............oddly sexy
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bat
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by bat on Jan 2, 2007 9:10:50 GMT 10
Kenny, The comments I made about the 'small minded' muso's who post here still stand. It's interesting to note that the successful musicians in the local scene who are members of this forum never post any comments. AJ - thanks for calling me a troll. Obviously you don't know who I am, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment. I guess the comments hit home. Punter - my comments are just as boring as some of the rubbish you've contributed. American jazz? in real musical terms the Americans have it all over us in terms of Music Education(especially resources in High Schools), philanthropic support for the arts, gigs and recording industry opportunities, instruments that arent horrendously overpriced and substandard, and a huge community of musicians in the major cities..... and yet Australians continue to make music -sometimes brilliant music with conviction and creativity.the seriousness of this commitment driven home to me by the passing of one of melbournes most inspiring spirits very recently. for myself and others who find themselves ''enjoying'' the stress of a creative life in this country - this forum provides a bit of ground to bounce ideas on -whether they be serious , definitive, crap ,pointless,abusive. The notion which OJ affirms with disquieting certainty that noone of local stature bothers posting here is irrelevant - because if thats true then oj knows something the rest of us do not have the privilege of knowing - and discussion of ideas ends there. If its simply an assertion based on the quality of the posts here... well there certainly is a degree of trash posted here - some of it by me. Its a bit like a gig - sometimes i play crap -sometimes I dont - I try to make music and sometimes it works.The point is that I think about it all the time - as do the majority of musicians/music lovers who post here- and that has a bearing on any comment(including OJ's) whether the writer is "famous' or not. |
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Post by vickibonet on Jan 2, 2007 13:28:18 GMT 10
Bat: I enjoyed reading your thinking on this.
Cartman: I wish you would 'stop being yourself and be nice' (to paraphrase a brilliant thinker who was worried once about imminient arrival of so-called VIPs) but as we all excercise poor judgement every now and then when being spontaneous and young-ish... (see new thread)
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Post by ironguts on Jan 3, 2007 8:24:20 GMT 10
Famous? What does that mean? Who in Aus Jazz is famous and why? James Morrison? Joe Chindamo? Grabowsky? We could not only argue about who plays Jazz but also who is famous. I'm not famous, I even doubt I play Jazz most the time, who gives a flying fuck really.
Look at Grabba, one of the most accomplished and individual pianists in the world today. If he is 'famous' it's probably to do with TV and not his monstrous ability, that is fame in the wider community though. So if we talk of fame in our community, the jazz community, whatever that may be, then we can have a different measure for 'fame'.
Success is another word tied somehow to Fame. Both pretty bad words to use without some sense of clarification of your understanding or criteria of their use. There are heaps of successful artists in this country if their aim is to simply produce a product they're pleased with. Not many though if they're trying to impact on the international market, or to make an income from just playing their music.
I'm definitely famous for my swearing though, I'll take that.,,,,,cunts.
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Post by punter on Jan 4, 2007 10:08:09 GMT 10
and your table tennis
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