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Post by lloydswanton on Jul 1, 2009 9:37:13 GMT 10
Where this thread started from, and where it is now, suggests once again that there's some immutable law of jazz discourse which ordains that any discussion of jazz, no matter how remote the topic, will eventually narrow down to an argument about Wynton Marsalis.
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Post by isaacs on Jul 1, 2009 9:50:15 GMT 10
The normal internet thing is that it ends up with.... Hitler (Godwin's law, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law [unrelated to Godwin Grech!]). Of course in some people's minds the two seem barely distinguishable. |
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Post by captain on Jul 1, 2009 10:48:51 GMT 10
Where this thread started from, and where it is now, suggests once again that there's some immutable law of jazz discourse which ordains that any discussion of jazz, no matter how remote the topic, will eventually narrow down to an argument about Wynton Marsalis. Absolutely! Love ya Lloyd. Some people around here are just obsessed with the guy, its weird. Let's talk about how lame Dave Douglas is for a while. |
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Post by alimcg on Jul 1, 2009 11:11:28 GMT 10
The normal internet thing is that it ends up with.... Hitler (Godwin's law, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law [unrelated to Godwin Grech!]). Of course in some people's minds the two seem barely distinguishable. Are you comparing Godwin Grech to Hitler, or Wynton to Hitler?! How about comparing Grech to Marsalis - one disowned by the conservatives, the other conservative and disowned. |
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Post by captain on Jul 1, 2009 11:25:31 GMT 10
Musical fascism is rife in both camps, ie you're only real if you can play the blues, vs you're only real if you play Jazz that sounds nothing like Jazz (thats how you know its Jazz, because Jazz is about innovation man, and nothing else, by pain of death.)
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Post by isaacs on Jul 1, 2009 11:57:56 GMT 10
The normal Internet thing is that it ends up with.... Hitler (Godwin's law, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law [unrelated to Godwin Grech!]). Of course in some people's minds the two seem barely distinguishable. Are you comparing Godwin Grech to Hitler, or Wynton to Hitler?! How about comparing Grech to Marsalis - one disowned by the conservatives, the other conservative and disowned. I thought it was clear that the only comparison I was making was between two Internet laws, Godwin's Law and Swanton's Law. I said others might compare the central character in both laws i.e. Marsalis and Hitler. I certainly wouldn't. Marsalis was very nice to me, I suspect Hitler wouldn't have been. Invoking Godwin Grech in my mention of Godwin's law was simply topical. No comparisons implied. Keep me out of it! |
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Post by vickibonet on Jul 1, 2009 12:24:58 GMT 10
Where this thread started from, and where it is now, suggests once again that there's some immutable law of jazz discourse which ordains that any discussion of jazz, no matter how remote the topic, will eventually narrow down to an argument about Wynton Marsalis. Or Joe Chindamo. (See the Jazzpolice Chindamo debate from 2005- 2008.) |
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Post by timothystevens on Jul 1, 2009 13:10:02 GMT 10
Good grief. Why bring that up?
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Post by punter on Jul 1, 2009 13:47:35 GMT 10
Musical fascism is rife in both camps, ie you're only real if you can play the blues, vs you're only real if you play Jazz that sounds nothing like Jazz (thats how you know its Jazz, because Jazz is about innovation man, and nothing else, by pain of death.) Not necessarily about innovation, but (as George Lewis argues) about telling your story. Our stories are not American stories so why would we want to sound like Americans? Is that fascism? Wynton argues that if you don't sound like the old masters then you are not playing jazz... he's wrong!! I know all these quotes might be tiresome but for some reason I can't get off this one... here's what Lewis says again of 'Afrological' improvisation...“the development of the improviser in improvised music is regarded as encompassing not only the formation of individual music personality but the harmonisation of one’s musical personality with social environments.” |
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Post by isaacs on Jul 1, 2009 14:07:52 GMT 10
Musical fascism is rife in both camps, ie you're only real if you can play the blues, vs you're only real if you play Jazz that sounds nothing like Jazz (thats how you know its Jazz, because Jazz is about innovation man, and nothing else, by pain of death.) Not necessarily about innovation, but (as George Lewis argues) about telling your story. Our stories are not American stories so why would we want to sound like Americans? Is that fascism? Wynton argues that if you don't sound like the old masters then you are not playing jazz... he's wrong!! I know all these quotes might be tiresome but for some reason I can't get off this one... here's what Lewis says again of 'Afrological' improvisation...“the development of the improviser in improvised music is regarded as encompassing not only the formation of individual music personality but the harmonisation of one’s musical personality with social environments.” Can't...take...anymore......Must speak...... Are you Black? How can you appropriate both "Afrological improvisation" (!) and "jazz" to your position yet deny a African American the right to appropriate the word "jazz" to his. You've got some chutzpah buddy. And why are you so down on successful trumpet players? |
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Post by punter on Jul 1, 2009 15:15:13 GMT 10
Can't...take...anymore......Must speak......
>>>>>Thanks for gracing us with your forensic intelligence Mark...
Are you Black?
>>>>>No, should I be??
How can you appropriate both "Afrological improvisation" (!) and "jazz" to your position yet deny a African American the right to appropriate the word "jazz" to his.
>>>>>>Not appropriating or denying
You've got some chutzpah buddy.
>>>>>If you say so Mark
And why are you so down on successful trumpet players?
>>>>>>Pointed question?? I guess it music be because I'm such a failure. Can't stand seeing others' success. Must be that what else could it be??
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Post by isaacs on Jul 1, 2009 15:40:09 GMT 10
I read it again - and again - and feel the same, minus the unnecessary outrage and rancour (apologies for that). Checking out of this thread properly this time....
EDIT You edited your post while I replied. The first version merely invited me to read it again + the (I assume) sarcastic remark about "forensic intelligence".
I was responding to the first truncated version.
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Post by trumpetguy on Jul 1, 2009 16:26:42 GMT 10
I was going to comment about jazz being a creative musical process (which is not bound by much of what has been discussed) and not (necessarily) a style of music but then thought better of it - glad I didn't post that. whew
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Post by alimcg on Jul 1, 2009 17:58:44 GMT 10
Jazz-shmazz - I just play music - it's much easier that way... and from now on I'll refer to everybody as "Mr", no informality - no-sir.
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Post by bobbob on Jul 1, 2009 18:03:22 GMT 10
Well, Captain,if I said it sounds like a cross between things who could both those things be the same.
I think maybe what we have is a little bit of a semantic problem. I definitely would put Wynton Kelly in the box of bop piano players (maybe post- hard- whatever). I guess i paint with a broad brush, but I also think Anthony Pateras does have a very big Cecil Taylor influence in his playing.
I like Wynton's playing. there is lots of "new" groundbreaking music
This is a boring topic and i don't know why I have written so much. Marsalis is way too easy a target.
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