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Post by captain on Jul 1, 2009 18:04:07 GMT 10
Mark my man, you just hit the nail on the head.
If we are telling our own story, thats great! Unfortunately for Wynton, being a black man from New Orleans, he's not allowed to play black new orleans music, for the (European) powers that be have decided that he would be better off improvising Elliot Carter style melodies, or playing through a delay pedal in order to "move past" 60's Jazz.
But that's cool because He has decided that Europeans all need to shed their blues more.
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Post by captain on Jul 1, 2009 18:06:30 GMT 10
Well, Captain,if I said it sounds like a cross between things who could both those things be the same. I think maybe what we have is a little bit of a semantic problem. I definitely would put Wynton Kelly in the box of bop piano players (maybe post- hard- whatever). I guess i paint with a broad brush, but I also think r Anthony Pateras does have a very big Cecil Taylor influence in his playing. I like Wynton's playing. sorry this doesn't make much sense, care to edit? Wynton Kellly is a bop pianist for sure. He is also a swing pianist, a blues pianist, a calypso pianist, and probably wasn't a bad classical pianist. You're missing the point. Stop defining musicians by their influences. |
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Post by captain on Jul 1, 2009 18:09:30 GMT 10
I was going to comment about jazz being a creative musical process (which is not bound by much of what has been discussed) and not (necessarily) a style of music but then thought better of it - glad I didn't post that. whew Jazz isn't a style of music. Bebop is. Big Band swing is. Dixieland is. 'Free' Jazz is, and has been around in one form or another for 50 years so I wish folks would stop trying to put it on a pedestal above other styles. Jazz is much bigger than all of these things, and thats why we have these debates. |
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Post by trumpetguy on Jul 1, 2009 18:36:16 GMT 10
I was going to comment about jazz being a creative musical process (which is not bound by much of what has been discussed) and not (necessarily) a style of music but then thought better of it - glad I didn't post that. whew and.......? What is your connection here? If you read through the posts you'll see the term jazz used often and it sure looks as though it is being referred to as a genre of music. would you really call what's going on here a debate??? |
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Post by alimcg on Jul 1, 2009 19:29:03 GMT 10
This is not a debate - or certainly not a good one! As the saying goes; when you start arguing with idiots - well, pretty soon you can't tell one from the other.
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Post by aj on Jul 1, 2009 21:13:18 GMT 10
[/quote]
and.......? What is your connection here? If you read through the posts you'll see the term jazz used often and it sure looks as though it is being referred to as a genre of music. would you really call what's going on here a debate???[/quote]
It's run to 9 pages...maybe that makes it a mass debate?
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Post by vickibonet on Jul 2, 2009 0:16:33 GMT 10
Good grief. Why bring that up? Timothy Stevens! Sometimes you really don't get my humour, do you? Good grief indeed. |
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Post by vickibonet on Jul 2, 2009 0:28:48 GMT 10
Jazz-shmazz - I just play music - it's much easier that way... and from now on I'll refer to everybody as "Mr", no informality - no-sir. Oh oh sexism on Ozjazzforum! :-) Tsk tsk tsk! Please don't refer to me as 'Mr' or 'Sir' until my gender reassignment is complete. Hey, I'd mention that your comment might bring back the infamous Penny Senveigh and the 'cunt' debate of 2003. But it could be too much for you all you lovely gentlemen. So I won't. I enjoy these more heated threads, must say. Seems to bring out the best in us all. (Myself included). Goodnight boys. |
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Post by trumpetguy on Jul 2, 2009 11:09:59 GMT 10
and.......? What is your connection here? If you read through the posts you'll see the term jazz used often and it sure looks as though it is being referred to as a genre of music. would you really call what's going on here a debate???[/quote] It's run to 9 pages...maybe that makes it a mass debate?[/quote] I think you have nailed it AJ ! |
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Post by captain on Jul 2, 2009 11:16:18 GMT 10
Why is it not a debate? We have several viewpoints being discussed, disagreed with, and backed up with evidence. Everyone is taking their turn, no one is being uncivil (yet), so whats your problem buddy, huh?
HUH?!? WHATS YOUR FECKEN PROBLEM??!!!
sorry bout that. Haven't had a coffee yet.
In regards to the debate question ----
We haven't been discussing Jazz as a style. We've been discussing how high profile performers and their relative contributions to the genre positively or negatively effect the pulic perception of said genre.
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Post by trumpetguy on Jul 2, 2009 14:26:43 GMT 10
In regards to the debate question ---- We haven't been discussing Jazz as a style. We've been discussing how high profile performers and their relative contributions to the genre positively or negatively effect the pulic perception of said genre. The difference between genre and style being in the context of this discussion? just checked and I said both genre and style, which I used as inerchangeable terms for the same thing, so I don't know what you are on but I'd sure like some of it..... |
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Post by trumpetguy on Jul 2, 2009 14:34:56 GMT 10
just checked the trusty old dictionary and it appears style and genre are interchangeable.........  I get what you are saying Captain but I am saying that the discussion should be about the process of creativity,effective inprovisation, connection, empathy, interaction blah blah blah and not whether a particular person plays in the new orleans style, bop, hard bop, ecm, softcock bop or whatever. Look at Wynton - how do you define his playing? Does he display the elements considered as essential in the creation of good improvised music? Does the genre/style/sub-style/sub-genre/geographic location/cultural heritage/ etc matter? Is Wynton's comment that Miles played rock and not jazz (or words to that effect) valid? I am not using Wynton (Marsalis) as an example for any reason other than for some strange reason it is the 1st name that comes to mind when reading this thread. etc etc etc |
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Post by bxckxtrxdxr on Jul 2, 2009 14:41:12 GMT 10
TLDR (too long didn't read it)
But isn't it also funny how only non-musicians call musicians "musos"?
I always hated that term.
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Post by bobbob on Jul 2, 2009 16:53:22 GMT 10
Just spent the day off work and thought I'd pull out some old Marsalis records, apropos of this thread, and I must say that my memories of them as being kind of dull affairs was wrong. There really is some nice music there. Still, his judgements and pronouncements as to what musicians are valid or not are really divisive and still don't strike me as being a very positive way to promote the music.
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Post by vickibonet on Jul 3, 2009 0:40:52 GMT 10
TLDR (too long didn't read it) But isn't it also funny how only non-musicians call musicians "musos"? I always hated that term. Lots of musicians used the term muso/s but that's going back quite a few generations I think. I don't like the term much either but I sometimes use it in fond memory of my father and his 'muso' pals, like Graham Lyle and Alan 'Buci' Deak (RIP) for example. Who you've probaby never heard of, I'm guessing? Unless you are Graham Lyle, and if you are, is it true you sold your soprano? |
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