Why are vocalists not great?

[johnnymastropaulos]

march said:

that eamon guy isn't bad

hmm.... dubious.

[johnnymastropaulos]

and ps. the only repsonse to some dumb punter that tells you what you're playing isn't jazz?

i'll give you a clue. starts with fuck and finishes with off

[johnnymastropaulos]

unless you're playing cold chisel covers in which case the response is "der!"

[tuggsey]

Yup.Creativity is a casualty of narrow mindedness - the word jazz carries a stigma the size of the Titanic in some circles as does the word "pop" in others. People can get touchy about labels.Watching Joni Mitchell performing live on DVD the other day reminded me there is room for just about any style of music in the jazz axiom - or maybe she is accepting jazz into the folk axiom - its not about style - its about songs creativity and spontaneity.If those labels stand for anything - its not the music -its the intention behind the music. :-

[mim]

shaggaz said:

i have thought about this topic a bit. last year a good friend of mine (who is incidentally a great vocalist) did some weekend nights at bennetts and performed her original material (shoop be dops pretty much excluded). consequently, she had the awful experience of being hassled by some punters who laughed through her first set and then told her that the music she was performing 'wasn't jazz' and promptly left the club.

HER STUFF IS A FRIGLOAD BETTER THAN MOST WEEKEND VOCALIST SHIT

So, the question is, what's acceptable? It seems to me that all scat, good or bad, is referred to by many people as "shoop be dops" or something similar. And as that seems a fairly derogatory way to refer to scat, I would deduce that these people don't like scat. However, if a singer doesn't do improvised solos, they aren't considered jazz singers. So, the only option I can see is to sing songs with improvised solos but with no scat syllables in them. Just open sounds and random articulations that don't bare resemblence to tradition. Although something tells me that wouldn't be acceptable either...

[johnnymastropaulos]

AH mim!

You've hit the nail on the head!

What you're talking about is a symptom of the neurosis of the jazz musician.
The symptom's can be more clearly seen with singers, because, quite simply it is a more direct and personal instrument for expression than the rest of them.

The Neurosis is this: I want to play jazz and I love [Charlie Parker/Miles Davis/John Coltrane/Keith Jarret/Bill Frisell or whatever] and I want to play like them, but they believed in innovation, but I can't innovate in within the same parameters as they did because it's already been done by someone else, but I have to innovate cos miles said so, but can't but I have to, but I can't, but I have to etc. etc.

The thing is, horn players can easily hide this neurosis behind a baffling display of Miles Davis Cool nhilist attitude, fast notes, be-bop lines that merge into what passes for a melodic "idea", followed by a one-chord show off solo, a couple of loud notes, a couple of displays of chromaticism to show that you're innovating and bob's your uncle. no-one can really understand it anyway but it sonded impressive.

But - because singing is so direct, these things, if they're bullshit, are OBVIOUSLY bullshit. So they can't get away with them.

I can get away with half a chorus of poorly executed lee morgan lines and everyone goes -GREAT!
but a singer can't get away with scatting, because jazz musicians hear it and go "That's not innovative, that's JUST jazz! It sounds cheesy!" but deep in their heart they know that what they;re doing is just as cheesy, but they;re getting away with it.

So what are you to do? You can't sing scat-solos, you can't just sing the song, you can't do open sounds and random articulations (the latter because it sounds excruciatingly awful)...

Lisa Young, Gian and Ben Gillespie have found a couple of interesting solutions, but mostly... You've just got to do want you want to do, and get good enough at it (like julie o'hara among others) that you just look at them and say.. "buddy.. what the fuck would you know?"

[johnnymastropaulos]

and further more... In the words of Sam Bates: "Jazz is Dead! ...but it's still fun"

[millie]

Singers are the greatest....
when they are:
in tune
know the music
grooving
and dont bitch about each other and everyone else.

[tinky]

March hit it on the head, why do no singers sing like Elliot Dalgliesh.
There are some good singers here but are there any with the character and individual style of someone like Elliot?
It goes further than just the singing too, it must incorporate the whole musical concept.
Personally I love to hear Ben G sing, he makes me happy. Julie Ohara rocks too, Nina can sing, Vince has an amazing voice, Joe Lane can sing be-bop, but whos music do you like? Who are the singers that have found their musical Voice (excuse the pun).
Now before anyone attacks me, I'm not saying these people haven't, I'm simply asking others.

[isaacs]

johnnymastropaulos said:

followed by a one-chord show off solo, a couple of loud notes, a couple of displays of chromaticism to show that you're innovating and bob's your uncle

Shouldn't that "and BOP'S your uncle"

I have to offer comment to this discussion, since I am on the record as saying my new CD is inspired by singers, which it absolutely is, in the following ways:

*I see the main creative game in each tune as being how I phrase and interpret the MELODY
* The solos are an EXTENSION of the melody, not what I called "florid arabesques through changes" a la bebop (which is fine in its place)
* I often think the lyrics as I play, especially in codas, where I try to lay out motivic hooks based on phrases from the lyrics like singers do
* I deliberately chose songs that traditionally have no real currency or history with players, but massive resonances with singers

I think there is a major precedent for this in jazz in pre-be bop music, specifically trad jazz, where solos were based on the melody not the changes. And player/singer Louis Armstrong is of course the Deity.

Singing is the source of all music. Singing and the drums. I've got drummers coming out of my ass, everyone digs the drums, they don't need any more help. For me it's about time jazz musicians knelt at singers' feet. Nothing touches me more than sublime singing, and as a pianist to accompany a great singer is the maximum pleasure. That's why I invited Elana to join my trio in a tour and at Wang last year. Some people said it was self-effacing of me but no way, it was sheer joy. And that girl (for one) is as creative, free and spirited as just about any musician I have played with.

[tinky]

I'm reminded of a comment that I've heard made that horn players try to mimmick the sound of a vocalist, I guess this is most relevant to pre-bop. I think its the other way around personally.
I once got told of by someone for not thinking of the lyrics whilst playing body and soul. I asked if my playing wasn't very good, they said that my playing was great and I sounded good but it wasn't appropiate to the Lyrics. Now for one there was no singer so in my book thats no words, the other thing is I don't know the words so maybe it wasn't appropriate. The other thing however is that what I think is appropriate for whatever the words are would most likely be less appropriate for what they thought anyway, so in short that person can fuck off.
Words and music, different things. How do you express a word in music? Now this is a serious question. Coltrane got told his music was full of anger! Why? Perception. The man was a big love bubble Christian, but he expressed himself a certain way.
What is a love song? Some dribbly piece of romantic shit that makes you want to puke? Or maybe Welcome by Trane off Transitions?

[Kenny]

As somone who been "off" vocalists for a good while, but who is listening to a great steaming heap of wild western swing and honky tonkin' country (and thus a LOT of vocals), here's part of my perspective...

I feel in some ways - in terms of jazz singing - we're talking about two different languages.

Listening to the instrumental music I love, is one thing.

But as soon as singing - or, more to the point, lyrics in English - come in, I feel I am listening to something else. A whole nutha story. Literally. And I find it quite tricky to make the transition. The instrumentalists sort of quickly become a backdrop to the lyrical narrative.

There are, of course, many exceptions. I love the hell out of Billie Holiday. And then there are the singers who are brothers and sisters of the instrumental players they work with.

[johnnymastropaulos]

millie said:

Singers are the greatest....
when they are:
in tune
know the music
grooving
and dont bitch about each other and everyone else.

Trumpet Players are the Greatest...

(nuff said.. but just for the point of continuing)

when they are:
bitching about each other and everyone else

[barbara1]

johnnymastropaulos said:

followed by a one-chord show off solo, a couple of loud notes, a couple of displays of chromaticism to show that you're innovating and bob's your uncle. quot;

Shouldn't that read "Bob's your Father"!!!

[tinky]

Well Johnny, they're rarley in tune, know the music or groovin, speaking from experience of course.