The Outings

[vickijane]

Mark’s forum has been abused by some demonstrating that we have unhealthy factions in our community, made up of (sometimes) very insecure artists, just like all other artistic communities all over the world.

The outings were surely an emotional knee jerk reaction brought on by a combination of factors i.e. to paraphrase Hippocrates: Life is short, art long, opportunity fleeting, experience treacherous, judgement difficult.

An internet forum that gives the option to keep contact details private should really keep it that way – a change in policy should be notified first to members who may be given the opportunity to jump ship. Privacy laws are strict: what is stored on databases now in Australia must not be shared without written consent. I doubt anyone would take legal action if it even applies to e-forums. Has anyone really been hurt by their email address being made public? Spam maybe, that’s all.

Finally another lifted quote: We have met the enemy and he is in us! Pogo.

[isaacs]

I apologise for outing people. I take the point that they selected the option to keep their email addresses "hidden" and I have leaked the information. There will be no more outings, that is an ironclad committment. (The outing of Betty was just exasperation).

My reaction was indeed emotional and took place at 3am at a point of sheer physical exhaustion. I host this forum voluntarily, give it considerable time (and some money) all as a service to the Australian jazz community. It was one thing to be flamed anonymously here (duplicated to my email address). It was another thing to note a couple of colleagues (one who I thought was something of a friend) who didn't see fit to offer words in my defence, or just as importantly in defence of the other people flamed here, including such a gentle soul as Tony Gould - but rather chose the option to have a good old laugh and say bring it on in so many words.

If the host gets attacked at a party usually all bets are off. Particularly if certain other guests egg it on. Instead of saying "Party over" and petulantly pulling the plug on this forum (which would be a disservice to the Australian jazz community I love as well as to the majority of people who post here like human beings) I am considering disassociating myself from the forum. That is easily enough done. I can hand the moderator position to someone else if there are any takers. In many ways I feel like doing that now. Clearly certain people would be delighted with that prospect. Maybe I am a fascist and a cunt, but there is something very ugly that keeps surfacing here that I wouldn't mind not being associated with: a belligerent, macho, alcohol-infused "Fuck you!" boys'-own anger at (most shamefully) fellow musicians and others too that I can honestly say seems unique to a sub-section of the Melbourne scene (at least in terms of Australia). I say that, having decided not to play in Melbourne again in a hurry after something like 30 people only paid to see my trio last Sunday after we flew all the way from Darwin(this being the most recent in a long series of no-shows for my numerous BL gigs over the last 12 years, I'm surprised MJ bothers with me). It's one thing to play for 30 paying customers if you live in Melbourne, but if you are carrying 3 airfares and hotel rooms and have endured a long flight and no musicians or OJFers are there or come up and say hello (except Tim S., thanks mate)...why bother.....anyway that's irrelevant but probably coloured my mood too, and those of you whose sense of schadenfreude is tickled by the fact that no-one in Melbourne is much interested in my music to come to my gig: enjoy yourself!

Anyway I said I wouldn't post and I have. I won't post for a period while I make a decision about whether to stay here or leave in the more permanent sense.

Again I apologise to the people I outed. It was wrong in principle. And if I do leave, it will partly by way of apology for that deed.

[isaacs]

PS Sorry aj, you were there too of course. Thanks for making the effort.

[aj]

so is that an ironclad commitment ? or an irongutsed one ?

[tuggsey]

I guess this raises the issue once again of whether a principle of leaping to the defence of others( in what is a virtual environment) reflects the true nature of our playing environment.In my book , words can be effective , but they are cheaper than action....and they are bandied about here with the kind of playfulness and irreverance that one expects from improvising musicians and afficianados of this music. I , and alot of others valued this site for the opportunity it provides to do just that... and occasionally someone goes feral and abuses every privilege offered here-thats what censorship is for - action that only Mark can take -he chose not to do that - If he truly values the sensibilities of these people , why is he leaving it up on the board for them all to read.?To create a bit more ill feeling around the place?As for harm done , it remains to be seen , on how it is interpreted by the people involved. There was apart from the implication of having been involved, an assumption made that myself and others had really bothered to read the crap in this thread - the only bit that interested me was the Dizzys story - the rest of it just seemed like the kind of crap we've seen posted many times before and justly ignored. Seeya.

[isaacs]

I'm torn about leaving it all up and yes it is inconsistent with my concern for the feelings of others. But I feel it's worth identifying the demons in our midst (and to some degree within all of us). To be consistent - if I am to continue here - I would institute a policy of no outing AT ALL and no censorship AT ALL.

I was waiting for you to pick up the "iron clad" pun aj, it was intended and I knew you'd underline it.

I don't agree with your words/action dichotomy tuggsey. Words ARE actions. Neurons fire, lips move, air vibrates - or fingers move on keyboard and the very landscape of cyberspace changes for all to see. How is all that not an action? You postulate an anarchic free play with words but won't accept my freedom to play with words that involve email addresses/secret knowledge. That's fine I've already agreed I shouldn't have that freedom. I also think people shouldn't have the freedom to not defend their friends when the opportunity presents itself and still call themselves friends (especially when such defense involves no peril to themselves). But I obviously can't make that a rule and won't even try. It's just a feeling.

[tuggsey]

Ha - bit late for use of the pseudonym Mark - thats cool...but freedom goes both ways - freedom to choose ones course of words/actions relate to an individuals relationship with whoever is affected -but there is absolutely no way anyone else has the right to sit in judgement on that.I support your right and freedom to be outraged -I dont even really care that you outed me - we all do lame stuff in a state of disquiet .For Joe or Tony or Bobby or anyone else who copped it ,the fact that musicians en masse did not leap to their defence is fairly plain to see - but alot of us expected that thread to be censored and as for myself -I even implied it in my contribution and that was after reading the first posting.For the case of most of the people mentioned on that thread ,they would find my existence"less than significant"to quote Tinky . The one or two who I know personally I know to be pretty good at giving what they get..(check out CH)and I respect them for that.
I.m generous with my praise to my friends and colleagues - and hopefully likewise if I deserve it. Friendship is not a codified concept Mark - please dont call on other peoples in this way.

[isaacs]

Fair enough and thank you tuggsey, I'm not "calling on" anybody in the end. I have my reactions, and if I want to feel disappointed in people I am entitled to. They don't have to do anything with it - it's my problem and I can deal with it (but "outing" was the quick and uncool way to fix the problem, yes)

I came home from a tour in which much related to setting up the Melbourne performance was problematic. I was disappointed in the turn-out at BL and I know it's a drag for Martin J. to lose money on me every time. On the way home I got an abusive email from that vianio character downloaded on the mobile phone. At first I didn't realise he was connected to OJF. I logged on to OJF after a few days at 3am actually to get solace form that email. Maybe I thought a few people would have seen the gig, had some nice things to say etc. Tim had already emailed me his warm responses so I knew those were there - then BANG that thread hit me. I'm sorry I really crashed on every level, and when I saw Ironguts cheering and I knew it was Scott T. who I love heaps and I just thought "Say something nice mate!" and that was it........

I'm alright now. Have been sight-reading classical music all afternoon and I sounded like shit and I feel better.

Can I stay? Will you guys forgive me?

I'm sorry I said things about Melbourne. I stand by my idea that there is a uniquely "dark" and slightly scary element there that I have encountered nowhere else in Oz jazz, but I know it's a tiny minority. But I guess I am used to upbeat optimistic sunny Sydney people. Sorry to generalise.

I'm going to the doctor now as it seems the last couple of days have brought on some cardiovascular problems.

[johnk]

OJF belongs 2 isaacs. he makes the rules when he feels. f we dont like it... 2 bad 4 us! vote w/your mouse...start ur own 1 ....but dont attack the guy 4 working 4 the communtiy 4 free. we all hav shithouse days. this aint sum democractic process....... anywy man its only a website playground & words ARE action..... i agree with the boss on that 1.

[tinky]

Hey Mark, I guess its a wierd one this, but when I posted as ironguts I wasn't posting my own views but rather being 'in character' so to say. I'm not saying this as an excuse, its just the way I tried to do it. As Tinky I tried to stay out of these type of things, thinking its better to be the cock ironguts, maybe it backfired on this one. No harm meant on my part mate and I hope you stick around. It's also funny that even though I never really hid the fact that I was Guts, and most people knew, now its properly public there is no mysticism for me, he's dead .
Us Melb crew are dark and I love it, its entertaining for us and somehow uplifting, sounds fucked but its great. Sometimes though it gets real dark, pitch black in fact, for some its hard to deal with but when you're used to it the effect is less astonishing. Thats why I really didn't react much to what was said. It actually took me quite a few reads to see the depth. I actually totally missed the anti-semitic stuff, Veronica pointed that out to me.

[paulgrab]

Mark, the jazz community should be grateful to you for the service you have
provided. My guess is that they are, generally. What you have unleashed is a massive free jam session, in which everyone gets a solo whenever thay feel like it and however they feel it. It's very much in the spirit of the music, whether we question the ethics or not. If someone posts something designed to hurt, enrage or intimidate, then let it be a reflection on them. One thing about music is that it never lies. People do.
I would urge you to hang in there, and admire your dedicated commitment to allowing a forum to exist which will hopefully one day reflect a developing maturity in the scene. I personally believe that the act of making music is existentially affirmative, and of benefit to all people. The forum should reflect all viewpoints, but underlying it all is, I hope, a shared belief that what brings us together is mutually beneficial, not destructive.

[afficionado3]

by crikey, this IS a serious and slightly pompous forum isn't it.

I have been following the rotting corpse of the melbourne jazz scene for years, and quite frankly this whole debacle is the first belly laugh I have had for quite some time

far from being full of darkness and horror, I am excited to find that the underbelly of melbourne jazz contains some absolutely marvellous ratbaggery and distictive (albeit slightly evil) humour....from humour springs creativity eternal!

I heartily commend the naughty boys and girls behind all these wizard high jinks, and whilst I cannot endorse some of those little digs at our adjudicator here on OJF, I hope all you "avidjazzlovers" out there will sit back this evening and enjoy the bloody good laugh you terrific people deserve!

best to all

old afficionado

[isaacs]

John K, Scott and Paul (especially Paul as you do rarely post here) thank you all for your warm words.

I do love the dark-hued Melbourne thing, and I think Paul's unique harmonic language is a gift born from this womb.

Vianoi (or however you spell it) is pitch black. I allowed myself to be drawn into it and the the demons beset me, my own demons.

I do understand the alter-ego thing Scott. I hope we are mates again. I'm so very sorry I killed Iron Guts.

I'd like to put the last 48 hours behind us. Paul's words are an inspiration as always. We have so much we share and at times the going is tough. A friend just emailed to say just ignore the really dark horrible stuff.

The only drag is I'm back on the stupid blood pressure pills. But that's cool. They work. And they don't stop erections (I got that in triplicate).

[afficionado3]

sorry to hear the old tickers on the blink mark - too much sight reading probably- is that jazz?

thought it was worth suggesting that since you have seen fit to censor the antics of some of your recent junior members, you might have been displaying a bit of a double standard by not also removing your own erroneous behaviour and leaving your famous "outings"up for all

play on

[tuggsey]

Just adding my agreement to the above Mark- do stick around...To some extent the analogy that PG used here, as well as some of Tinks comments, explain the apparent lack of concern over those postings... If we hear something not happening in the music or become aware of what is essentially disruptive energy, as musicians we usually hold our own and carry on - much as I would if Ironguts bestowed a heckle or two while I played..and sometimes we overreact - I do sympathise with you over the gig on Sunday.Last night I played to about 10 people - they were nice people , but very few - no IG though.Seeya Guts.