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Post by alimcg on Oct 4, 2006 19:44:04 GMT 10
If they were making more than $300 it can't have been real art!
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Post by trumpetguy on Oct 4, 2006 20:18:26 GMT 10
If they were making more than $300 it can't have been real art! no it was fake art |
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Post by alimcg on Oct 4, 2006 20:25:30 GMT 10
Oh trumpetguy, you and your deadpan humour.
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Post by antboy on Oct 4, 2006 20:32:59 GMT 10
It's a somewhat sad fact that the general public want to hear music they can sing along to... I would love to "inform the public" so they would appreciate more interesting music (esp. involving improvisation), but how long would that education process take? A lot of these people that show up to Bennetts on a Friday or Saturday night don't want to THINK when they listen music- they want to sit back, have a beer, and be entertained... my point is how may people aren't even considering attending a jazz gig because they believe it to be dull and boring? Exciting heartfelt music will draw people - it may piss off the current crowd who will maybe stop going (or perhaps a few may even enjoy something new) - I reckon there is at least a crowd equivalent in size to the weekend jazz dags that would attend quality concerts I agree trumpet guy, many people and gigs have proved that many times, for me the more interesting jazz musics happening in melbourne has nearly always been in the small bars, gigs organised by musicians etc... the word "jazz club" straight away turns away many people I know, but if you put the same music in a different venue they will come and enjoy it... |
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Post by glean on Oct 4, 2006 22:39:02 GMT 10
one point that has been missed in this most interesting thread (thanks Jeremy for your brave input) is this: Are we in fact lobbying the wrong people entirely? I mean if you drill down isn't a lot of this due to the lack of music education in state run schools? Few can really appreciate contemporay improvised music with no musical education, I mean who attens the most way out gigs? Mostly other musicians cos it is so unfamiliar to the Robbie Williams fans so you have to go back to Jeff Kennett it's all his fault.
AJ is right too, Bennetts goes then the WHOLE Oz scene would suffer. Chindamo draws a crowd coz he is one awesome musician but also the guy knows its entertainment! and that entertainment is about selling a product
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Post by freddy on Oct 4, 2006 23:24:08 GMT 10
edit:freddy...
What club did you run again? Profitable is it?
. . . again, sorry to be so harsh, but I'm getting sick and tired of people telling us we don't pay people enough, we don't know how to run a 'real' jazz venue, that we are blood-sucking vampires, and generally that we are like leeches sucking money away from the arts by providing a venue to play in and actually attempting to make some money out of it.edit:
I'm glad you apologised because it's you who didn't read my post carefully. I haven't attacked anyone for being bloodsucking but the pay at Bennets for Friday and Sat. nights is low and can't be explained through high costs or poor attendance. Perhaps i should have told you that I've been to a fair few clubs in my relatively short life : Sydney, Melbourne, Singapore, San Francisco, Toronto, New York, London, Manchester, Leeds, Paris, Amsterdam . .and a few other places. I'm lucky in that my job gets me overseas at least a couple of times a year.
My point is that I've seen a lot in a lot of different contexts and I can tell you Bennetts Lane is not a well run business. Not from a service point of view. It has no service. Fullstop.
If it has no service then it will sell less unless it's easy to get to the bar. My experience is that it's easy if you are sitting on the bar side of the room. To get out from among those chairs (and here's another point - they are uncomfortable) is usually very difficult because no attempt is made by the club to ensure any seating order. So I don't get up, so I don't spend. Less spending means less income. I have never come across a venue anywhere in the world the size of Benntts Lane that has no table service and slow bar service like Bennetts Lane has. From that point of view only, our own craphole in Sydney, The Basement, shits all over Bennetts (choice of phrases deliberate).
And second, about ticket prices. My point here was that the popular acts are too cheap by a couple of dollars and this lowers overall club income. The rest of the program at Bennets, the real stuff, early in the week can't carry higher ticket prices than now.
So you can see this wasn't a personal attack. If you work at Bennetts or know tortoni tell him that's how he misses out on more income. He really ought to know by now.
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Post by jeremy on Oct 5, 2006 1:01:48 GMT 10
Freddy, I understood your point, and I dismissed it as unfortunately you do not represent the majority of our customers.
Like you, I have been to jazz clubs around the world. In most, if not all, there is no table service. It didn't matter if it was New York, Chicago, Copenhagen, Vienna, Paris, London, wherever (I have to admit I haven't been to a club in Hong Kong yet), but none of them did table service, and the majority of them had a drink minimum included in the entry. How well do you think that would go down in Australia?
Sorry, I don't understand that - it's not like BL has a huge amount of tables or chairs. Really it's beside the point anyway. The club isn't set up as a bar with music playing, it's a music venue with a bar. I know that's a subtle difference, but that difference means that you won't find staff wandering around talking to patron's while musicians are playing and interupting the listening, you also won't find them frothing coffee in the middle of a bass solo. BL was never set up to generate massive bar profits, if it was, there wouldn't be music on that was too delicate to hear over the yells of bar patrons, nor Madame Spankalot to tell people to shut up.
As for bar service being slow... It's not like it's a huge venue with a massive bar... considering people drink at specific times of the night (before and after sets) waiting for a whole couple of minutes for a drink really shouldn't be that difficult. BTW, you are the first person to ever call our chairs uncomfortable (at least to my knowledge). Sure the stools are uncomfortable, but we're replacing them soon. If we were running a kitchen, then I would agree that table service is required, but we don't, so having to actually walk the 5 metres max to the bar really can't be that hard.
Actually, I do work at Bennetts, and speak to Michael daily, so I do see it as a personal attack when you are insulting me, my co-workers, and my boss.
If you think the pay is too low on a weekend, organise a better deal with Michael - it's not that uncommon. Some bands take a 50/50 split on the door, some rent the room, some just do outright hire fees. I honestly don't know why people complain about what they get paid when they agree to the deal before the gig. As for raising the prices - the amazing amount of grief we got for raising it from $15 to $18 was astonishing. Putting it up to $20 would be more of a mental barrier. Seems $18 is already pushing it for most people, it's amazing how creative people will get to figure out a way to pay $3 less. The amount of 40 year old students we get is astonishing. As for the people who get out of their mercs to flash a concession card...
Now, back to the original topic - "When Are We gonna Get A Decent Jazz Club??!! " - let's just have a quick history recap:
Jazz Lane - lasted 2 years before going belly up
Dizzies - is it 5 or 6 years? and based on comments I have read here, is loved almost as much as us
The Loft - 1 month before it removed all jazz gigs in preference to DJ's
Cape Lounge - I'm not even going to go there, anyone who can be banned from their own premises must be a professional
Next Blue - 1 jazz gig, R&B ever since
The Basement - how many gigs a week are now jazz?
SIMA @ Soundlounge - is it 2 or 3 gigs a week?
Manchester Lane - trying to get into the old Continental market as jazz wasn't drwaing enough people
303 - do musos actually get paid there, or is it still a pass the hat deal?
Bennetts Lane - 14 years, jazz gigs every night, aparantly have no idea what they are doing.
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skank
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Post by skank on Oct 5, 2006 4:00:07 GMT 10
I totally agree musicians should get off there arses and make sure a gig happens, and if they decide to play for a fee, then they shouldn't complain about it later. My only point was that, from the $50 dollar an hour gibe, it seemed that playing music was somehow compared to the guy who comes in and stocks the fridge. It is clearly a different thing.
Personally, I think hiring your own venue and taking the door and the risk is a great idea. I guess alot of musicians don't have this option and end up playing places like these clubs we are talking about (because the lack of opportunity or lack of vision I don't know) and end up feeling ripped-off.
These kind of fees we're talking about haven't really gone up in 10 years (clearly aren't in step with inflation, unlike the other services used by the jazz clubs that have been mentioned - the staff, licence fees, stock, equipment,electricty/gas/water/council rates...). Maybe everyone simply feels a bit ...used..taken for granted..?.!..
I must say though, if a venue changes a door policy and wants the bigger cut from the door because a band is successful, (as 'trumpetguy' suggests ) AND it puts a ceiling on any possibility for the band to profit from its success and hard work, it does seem greedy, short sighted, disrespectful, ignorant and kinda blood-sucking... I would find somewhere else to play. Aren't there always other options? Maybe a good idea to think outside the circle a bit more.
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Post by freddy on Oct 5, 2006 7:41:25 GMT 10
Jeremy, let's clarify a few things first : 1. Bennetts Lane is a very important venue and has been pivotal in the development of the Melbourne scene. only a complete fool would want to see it go. 2. I don't think musicians are entitled to fees of $200 a gig unless they pull in the punters 3. Musicians playing mid week gigs in your small room will rarely make much money unless the gig is subsidised or the band is small and fills the room. 4. Bennetts Lane's busuness practises are up for discussion and should be like those of any venue That's out of the way now so . . . Freddy, I understood your point, and I dismissed it as unfortunately you do not represent the majority of our customers. How do you know that? Done any surveys? What were the questions? Your reply is just nonsense. Like you, I have been to jazz clubs around the world. In most, if not all, there is no table service. It didn't matter if it was New York, Chicago, Copenhagen, Vienna, Paris, London, wherever (I have to admit I haven't been to a club in Hong Kong yet), but none of them did table service, and the majority of them had a drink minimum included in the entry. How well do you think that would go down in Australia? Well our experiences have been totally different. Here are mine in more detail : San Francisco : Pearl's - table service; Yoshi's - table service Toronto - can't remember the name or whether it did have table service New York - Blue Note, Village Vanguard, Iridium, Smoke, Sweet Rhythm - all have table service (Birdland too I think). '55 Bar, the successor to Smalls, the Knitting Factory, Barbes and a couple of other small places had no table service. London - 606 and Ronnie Scotts both have table service Paris - New Morning, Duc des Lombards, Le Petit Journal all have table service; Sept Lezards, Sunrise - no table service Amsterdam - Bimhuis no table service I won't go on the point has been made. Most clubs the size of Bennetts big room have table service. Small clubs the size of Bennetts small room, don't. This is a gem. The Village Vanguard has table service that is efficient and discrete and a no noise policy that works too. People order drinks through the set without disturbing anyone. The bit about Bennetts being a venue with a bar rather than a bar with music and the rest is classic. My original point was that if the trading part of the operation were run better there would be more money to pay musicians. While you say you can't do that because it would disturb the performance. In other words, you don't want to make more money to pay the musicians better because that might disturb the performance! Now I've heard everything. You're paying shit money on Friday and Saturday nights for the sake of the musicians' well being as artists. This includes Jeff Duff? It's a novel argument. The two things aren't incompatible anyway, as I've shown. One further thing. You also think it's better to have no table service to sell more drinks but you don't mind if a punter like me, who wants a drink during the set, fights his/her way through the tables and chairs, and possibly disturbs people, to get a drink at the bar. Hmmm. Are you going to frown on people going to take a leak as well? My point was about allowing me and others like me, to part with our money (which we are willing to do) so that you can make more money to pay the musicians better. This is all just a smokescreen - we're talking about Bennetts poor pay rates on Friday and Saturday nights when the club attracts very good houses. I'm not a musician, I'm not from Melbourne so I don't care about all the above. Gigs at the Sound Lounge are subsidised gigs so it's not the same thing. I started out thinking that the musicians' complaints were a bit naive though understandable but after reading your posts I think they have a point. Sure they can negotiate with Tortoni about better deals but they are always in a position of weakness. If you think that paying $100 per is fair on a Friday or Saturday night , for say a sextet, when you've taken over $1500 , you're off your tree. |
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Post by alimcg on Oct 5, 2006 9:23:52 GMT 10
Some of the chairs in the jazz lab are a little uncomfortable - mainly just the 8 or so in front of the bar that don't have a table. They aren't so uncomfortable though that I'd stand for a whole night instead of sitting in them. I don't have a problem with the chairs at the tables. The floor is mildly uncomfortable on a busy night too!
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Post by Kenny on Oct 5, 2006 11:46:38 GMT 10
And, of course, not just the meat, but all those cool bits and pieces, too. You know - hot, fresh-baked rolls, slaw, corn on the cob, gravy, red beans and rice, ice-cold beer, babes, about a zillion kinds of hot sauce, onion rings, a great jukebox.
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Post by trumpetguy on Oct 5, 2006 12:01:16 GMT 10
Ditto Freddy - I agree, it's not rocket science, in fact some of the clubs you mention you don't even notice there is a bar - a very helpful drink person appears and takes your order - what a good idea.
While we're on it, why not introduce a 2 drink minimum or something on weekends - should boost profits and give musicians a bit more cash (if that's not expecting too much)
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gator
Full Member
Posts: 203
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Post by gator on Oct 5, 2006 12:52:42 GMT 10
one point that has been missed in this most interesting thread (thanks Jeremy for your brave input) is this: Are we in fact lobbying the wrong people entirely? I mean if you drill down isn't a lot of this due to the lack of music education in state run schools? Few can really appreciate contemporay improvised music with no musical education, I mean who attens the most way out gigs? Mostly other musicians cos it is so unfamiliar to the Robbie Williams fans so you have to go back to Jeff Kennett it's all his fault. Yes Glen - its another threads worth. but this State government got stuck into music education in the State sector in a big way earlier this year - just prior to the C.wealth Games in fact - with MYM receiving a huge funding cut, State schools with specialist music programs losing their bottom line and the closure of the state music library. All this in the face of new research that shows music education to be as important (if not more so)as any other "extra curricular" study including sport. I wrote an enraged letter to Lynne Kosky and after about 3 months received a reply from one of her lackeys - who did not address any of my concerns at all and basically told me off for getting overwrought about nothing.....which says alot about how important music is on the agenda. Back on the subject - BL has its pros and cons - its not perfect but its an ok place to do a gig.....if you can get one. |
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Post by captain on Oct 5, 2006 12:56:22 GMT 10
The lack of grand scale public interest and or record sales has entrenched this music into the kind of institutionalisation enjoyed by the western art music of the classical era, sans real funding.
The lack of grand scale public interest is due to to the musicians lack of respect of the roots and traditions of said music (if we are talking about Jazz) When you hear a band swinging, it invites you in, you become part of the event. Most contemporary Jazz lacks the rhythmic elements that would be present if the artist's had a thorough knowledge of the entire history of the music. I think you'll find there's always sizeable audiences for artists who can draw on that 'feeling' - music that invites rather seperates the audience. That's why groups playing traditional styles will still always pull a crowd. All Jazz is complex and difficult to understand by an uneducated listener. Swing (and variations and extensions of this tradition) and the vocal traditions of the Blues and tin pan alley allow the listener in to the 'private club' that is a band improvising. And I'm not saying we all need to include two Louis Armstrong covers a night, but if we get that 'feeling' into the music the people will come. |
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Post by captain on Oct 5, 2006 12:57:10 GMT 10
And, Kenny you are dead right. Bring on the soul food please!!
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