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Post by aj on Oct 7, 2006 19:39:50 GMT 10
A couple of weeks ago at the Paris Cat.....what's it to you anyway ?
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Post by freddy on Oct 7, 2006 23:36:40 GMT 10
Is it the Bennett's Lane viewpoint, therefore, that (a) the club exists more or less as a favour to musicians - or to the coterie of musicians who regularly play there - who in turn should be grateful for the performance opportunity that it affords them; that (b) it is the fact that jazz is on every night that brings the punters in, rather than the band playing on a specific night; that (c) it is entirely appropriate that the musicians who perform at the club effectively subsidise the running of the club, as they are the only ones in the venture without the right to expect due reward for their services; and that (d) this state of affairs is entirely proper, not worthy of review, and not in any way exploitative of the creative scene that feeds it? That seems to be the official line currently being transmitted. If so, then at least the place is being 100 per cent honest about it. a) The club exists both as a money making business and as a way for musicians to play their own music. Should they be grateful? Not my call. I'm grateful I get to hear some fantastic music while doing my job. Would the state of play be better if the venue was dedicated solely to making money? I doubt it as then we would have gone down a Basement style of booking and not have jazz on 7 nights a week. b+c) A combination of both. Someone asked if we ever surveyed out customers - we did for about 2 months asking mainly how they knew to come and why they came as a test of our advertising. The overwhelming response was "word of mouth" brought them to the venue. Sure, some bands/musicians draw their own crowd, others don't. This is one of the main reasons we have a door deal with a slight part of it going to the venue. If someone sits down and does the math they may notice that Sunday to Thursday doesn't see huge crowds turning up, maybe an average of 25-30. at $2 a head (or $1.50 for co-op nights) that's a massive amount of about $250-$300 made off the door for the majority of the week. Teh weekend subsides the rest of the week and in reality, we would probably be in a better position financially not to open Sunday through Wednesday and concentrate solely on nights that do make money. I don't expect the musicians to subsidise the club anymore than the musicians expect to be subsidised because they don't draw a crowd. Should they even get a gig if they can't get people to come and see them? They should expect due reward for their services, but who should be paying that reward, the venue or the punters? The venue provides a space for the performers to perform in, the punters are the ones there to enjoy the fruits of the performers labour. Maybe the performers should just hire the venue much like they would hire a piano or a sound guy? Performers have done it in the past - some have made a lot more than if they were doing a door deal, some have lost money. It all comes down to how much confidence the performer has in drawing a crowd. d) Is it above review? - no. Is it above review by people who have no stake in the venture? - yes. I'm a big fan of Risk vs. Reward. No risk, no reward. Hence me continuing to ask what venues people run that they can justify the questioning. Is it exploitative of the creativity that feeds it - in a sense, yes, it is. If the venue wasn't there as a framework for people to perform in - where would they perform? Unfortunately without infrastructure our society wouldn't work, a venue is part of that infrastructure, and infrastructure costs money. As for the official line - I'm not the owner of the venue, and as such, I'm not the bottom line. I just work there. I doubt you will find Michael ever reading these forums as the last time he did so was the last round of "Bennett's Bashing™" Thankyou Alimcg, I have no idea who you are, but you've said exactly what I said earlier. It's not the venue's job to negotiate deals to a point where performers get better pay, it's the musicians job. You'll get more respect from Michael presenting a valid and rational argument for being paid better than if you just turn up and say "gimme more cash" You should post as 'Red" Herring. |
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Post by freddy on Oct 7, 2006 23:50:20 GMT 10
Jeremy, you are awesome... I'm just going to say thanks to Bennetts Lane and everyone who works there. Don't know what my career would be like in this country without this club!  Lord Almighty. |
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Post by mim on Oct 8, 2006 1:07:00 GMT 10
........?
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Post by freddy on Oct 8, 2006 21:04:26 GMT 10
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Post by mim on Oct 8, 2006 21:26:19 GMT 10
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Post by aj on Oct 8, 2006 23:18:49 GMT 10
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Post by freddy on Oct 9, 2006 3:12:40 GMT 10
OK, MIM. I didn't want to use the following words for that post : toadying, obseqious |
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Post by mim on Oct 9, 2006 12:31:19 GMT 10
You can choose to interpret it that way of course, but do you know the author of the post?
I'm guessing not, otherwise you would probably understand the relationship she has with this club, and that her sentiments are more than likely genuine.
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Post by freddy on Oct 9, 2006 15:58:24 GMT 10
You can choose to interpret it that way of course, but do you know the author of the post? I'm guessing not, otherwise you would probably understand the relationship she has with this club, and that her sentiments are more than likely genuine. I thought I knew who she was, I don't know her personally, I have heard her sing, I have a CD and she might have be the nicest person in the world. But to post something personal like that in a debate on issues that obviously are of deep concern to many musicians here, was not the best move. How do you think it looks to someone who comes to read it cold? It brought a completely unnecessary personal note into the discussion and it more or less said to her fellow musicians "Bennetts has done ok for me, thank you thank you Bennetts, if it hasn't for you, too bad." She probably didn't want to say anything like that because she's a nice person and so on BUT, that is the how it reads. You have to take resaponsibility for what you write. In relation to matters being discussed on this thread it doesn't matter whether Jeremy is "awesome" or Michael Tortoni gives money to support orphaned children. The debate was about Bennetts pay and deals offered. I wasn't going to post any further comments but now it may be worth going over a few things. Alison's response was to a post by the "awesome Jeremy" which managed to avoid every criticism made of his original arguments and to distort the criticism. 1. Awesome Jeremy's response to my criticism of Bennetts business practices was to attack me as a customer, then to challenge my credentials. "Awesome"J, HTF do you know what credentials I have or haven't got? I may be Australia's top franchisee and have squillions in the bank, I may have a chain of cafes in Sydney and Melbourne or by 25 I may have become the leading soft toy importer in Sydney. You don't know and it's irrelevant if the criticism I make is to the point. And I think it is, because you don't address the substance of the arguments but try to "play the man". How many successful jazz clubs did you run before you started working at Bennetts, how many did Michael Tortoni own before he opened Bennetts? Both part of the question are irrelevant. Jeremy says its not a club's job to suggest better deals to musicians. He tells us that musicians can always negotiate different deals for themselves. Yeah, right from a position of weakness you can go far. (Just to recap we are talking about paying for musicians playing on a Friday and Saturday night). Why not take a risk and rent the whole venue he asks? Does that include all the door minus cost of hire and most of the bar take, say 70%? I'd love to know. Well I'll close with this suggestion. In my view when a club hires a band to perform it expects that band to play at its absolute best. I agree, the club has a right to expect that but at the same time the club has an obligation to implement business practices which generate the income to reward those musicians properly for their efforts. Forget trying to argue that Bennetts can't do that because it might disturb the musicians and/or other patrons, and upset them Jeremy. It's bullshit and you know it. |
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alison
Junior Member
oobleeedoooobleee ah ah
Posts: 98
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Post by alison on Oct 9, 2006 18:47:18 GMT 10
Freddy, I was just trying to inject some positivity into this thread...
and yes, I happen to like Jeremy and the thoughtfulness he has put into his posts, and I AM thankful for the club and the opportunities I have had to work there. Wasn't trying to be obsequious...
The concerns of the musicians here concern me as well considering I AM a musician, but being adversarial is never a good solution (even though I have been guilty of that as well in the past). I recommend speaking directly to the people involved (club owners, etc) rather than whinging on a forum. In my personal experience, this actually seems to get things done...
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Post by freddy on Oct 9, 2006 19:46:52 GMT 10
Freddy, I was just trying to inject some positivity into this thread... and yes, I happen to like Jeremy and the thoughtfulness he has put into his posts, and I AM thankful for the club and the opportunities I have had to work there. Wasn't trying to be obsequious... The concerns of the musicians here concern me as well considering I AM a musician, but being adversarial is never a good solution (even though I have been guilty of that as well in the past). I recommend speaking directly to the people involved (club owners, etc) rather than whinging on a forum. In my personal experience, this actually seems to get things done... Alison, see the modification above to my original post. Adversarial critique or not there were positive suggestions made in this debate. I suggested that Bennetts Lane improve its customer service. Well, we know what Jeremy thought of that. I don't know Jeremy and I don't know you and vice-versa. So what, why didn't you defend his arguments instead of making your post a note of personal support? Jeremy was never attacked personally even if he though he was. You're right about people speaking directly to the venue. They can do that, let them, and let's see where it goes. |
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Post by jeremy on Oct 10, 2006 3:15:04 GMT 10
edited: it was a response to freddy, but tbh, I can't be bothered anymore.
have fun,
Awesome Jeremy
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Post by antboy on Oct 10, 2006 19:51:51 GMT 10
hi all,
this thread is a spinout!
people express serious concerns about the scene, the venues (and lack of) musicians are playing in and the conditions of working as a jazz musician in Australia,
one says his opinion and gets labeled (the ozjazzforum specialty) NEGATIVE,
I don't agree with all Freddy has said but at least he has made attempts to start some kind of discussion, maybe contentiously (whooo haah),
then he endeavors to justify his words and create further discussion and not one person who has been involved in the discussion makes ANY response!
So (and in keeping with the strong ozjazzforum tradition) we have three responses here:
A: Bennett's lane is a pack of assholes, never did anything for anyone, cheating scumbags,
or
B: Bennett's lane saved my life with good will and flowers, and never can anyone express an opinion against it (including any discussion about what musicians could do to improve their situation)...
or
C: Everything is cool, let's not talk about it..
to me the interesting thing in a discussion like this is not so much whether Bennett's is ripping off musicians, uncomfortable chairs etc, or DIZZYS sucks etc...
but how musicians or organisers can take it into their own hands a little more, find their own venues, start nights, start labels, start associations, organize festivals, set some kind of example of self sufficiency, (and there are people that come to do this forum that do that, so thanks to them! )...
now THIS probably comes off as NEGATIVITY...
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Post by antboy on Oct 10, 2006 20:37:48 GMT 10
in all seriousness I hope I don't come off too negative, I hope some discussion can follow...
have we not had the same discussions about:
When are we going to get a decent jazz club?
When are we going to get a decent label?
When are we going to get decent distribution?
When are we going to get decent radio programs?
When are we going to get decent reveiwers?
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