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Post by freddy on Oct 10, 2006 22:19:45 GMT 10
in all seriousness I hope I don't come off too negative, I hope some discussion can follow... have we not had the same discussions about: When are we going to get a decent jazz club? When are we going to get a decent label? When are we going to get decent distribution? When are we going to get decent radio programs? When are we going to get decent reveiwers? Thanks, Antboy. I was surprised myself when the musicians stepped back. I thought it might be because they wanted to watch a slugfest. Things can move on at anytime. As to this, your second post I suggest in all instances "when" should be replaced by "how". I think there are serious matters here that could be discussed profitably. I know that this is mainly a forum about the Melbourne scene but these same issues are often discussed in Sydney too, and probably in Adelaide, Perth, Brisbane and so on. In other words there are common problems which affect jazz in Australia and we all, musicians, liteners, administrators of jazz organisations (Club managers) can contribute. But only if we don't invent personal slights or post "team songs" |
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Post by antboy on Oct 11, 2006 1:52:16 GMT 10
how? by moving ass!
For me there is of course a myriad of things involved but essentially it is that,
The best example I often think of is looking at the improvised/experimental music scene, somehow this seems to move much more and seems much more productive than the jazz scene, it gets money for festivals (the Now Now in Sydney, What Is Music? in Melbourne, Brisbane & Sydney, Un Sound in Wagga Wagga, Articulating Space Festival in Melbourne, The Totally Huge Music Festival in Perth),
also for regular concert series such as at the Make It Up Club, the NOW NOW bi-weekly concerts, Articulating Space, Club Zho in Perth etc...
Because there are no dedicated venues for improvised/experimental musics in Australia the musicians are put in the the position of doing it themselves, finding venues, finding money, organizing everything them selves, while this can be tiring and boring (as anyone who has done it well knows) there is a real dynamic of making it happen as we know no-one else will...and I imagine that's how a lot of these things such as MJC, SIMA, Wangaratta Jazz Fest etc started... because there were courageous individuals and collectives filling the need for something to be done about the lack of performing opportunities, an international jazz festival etc...
But now, with some kind of structure in place (however small), and with some of these things (SIMA, MJC) kicking on for quite some years now it seems to stop others from starting something else,
In jazz, many musicians (JazzGroove & HalfBent not included, and apologies to any others I have left out) seem to prefer complaining about bad conditions, lack of gigs etc than actually moving ass to start new things, they have MJC, SIMA etc who have done great work no doubt, but maybe because these structures exist it allows the musicians to sit back and "wait for the call" rather making any calls themselves...
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Post by freddy on Oct 11, 2006 7:53:11 GMT 10
Antboy, the things you listed are all important - venues, recording, distribution, radio program(s), reviewing/writing.
Not everything is achievable but much is. Getting a venue up would be the most difficult assuming that the money was provided by the govt, a foundation or privately. What will be it's viability in the long term? A venue for jazz/improvised music willneed a lot of subsidy if it is to do its job to offer the musicians reasonably well paid gigs and to promote the music. Such a place would only work in Melbourne and Sydney as far as I can see. It would require a lot of cash to operate through the year. Funny how building new theatres and putting lots of money into new theatre companies or dance companies is ok for the govt, but with jazz they look to thr private sector only. Musicians and the bodies such as the MJC, SIMA, JazzGroove, Make It Up Club, Half Bent have to lobby the govt. and convince them of their responsibility to this type of music.
Record companies here a small because the market is small. I don't know what can be done there. In Sydney, Rufus is great but apparently the owner Tim Dunn has lost thousands over the years.
Distribution is another thing and I don't know enough to comment. The majors aren't interested in most Australian jazz artists. But there are other smaller distributors who do a reasonable job. I'm thinking of The Necks' distributor. Their stuff is widely available.
I don't know what type of radio programme you have in mind. I'd just like to hear more jazz on the ABC and definitely a' new things in jazz and improv' on JJJ. Gerry Koster's programme is good but on late and I'd like to hear some jazz on mid-week not just on weekends.
We'll get more good reviewers/writers (there are some already) when there is more space for jazz in the papers. These short reviews drive me nuts and I know the reviewers don't like them. There have to be more features on jazz and our jazz players but newspapers will only do that if they think the market is there. So that's the challenge.
Your other post - about the musicians getting off their arses and making things happen is probably true but only up to a point. The scene needs to build things that last and this requires that not only musicians are involved.
The best thing that's happened in Sydney in recent years is Jazz/Now which is put on by SIMA and JazzGroove with support from the Opera House. It's a great little festival which I only caught a bit of this year because I was already working down here. It's now had three editions and shows you what collaboration can achieve.
With the impro scene I know the energy is there but it's such a small scene in terms of audience. I went to quite a few nownow events at their first 'venue' Space Three and it was ok, fairly rough and tumble but it had an atmosphere. Musicians can do things up to a point unless there is someone in the group who is a natural at organising things.
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Post by Kenny on Oct 11, 2006 9:05:30 GMT 10
These short reviews drive me nuts and I know the reviewers don't like them. There have to be more features on jazz and our jazz players but newspapers will only do that if they think the market is there. So that's the challenge. You got that right! For myself, while I continue to enjoy doing SHS reviews - no matter how abreviated - I have pretty much given up on "papers". Jazz Corner and All About Jazz for me in particular, the internet in general - reviews, sales, distribution, whatever - in general seem the only way to go. That's the challenge? Understatement. |
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Post by aj on Oct 11, 2006 9:18:19 GMT 10
How to make the newspapers even think about giving jazz more space ? The only thing I can think of is if people bombard them (either letters to the editor, or calls/emails to the respective arts/entertainment editors) demanding more features/reviews on jazz, and more space for the stories that do get a run, so the writers can actually say something meaningful.
One or 2 letters they might ignore ; dozens, scores, they will have to notice.
If they get no feedback whatsoever, they will assume that there is no problem with their current policy.............................
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Post by ladylex on Oct 11, 2006 12:13:55 GMT 10
Thats why Ive given up on writing for Newspapers. ONLINE FTW!!  |
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Post by freddy on Oct 12, 2006 8:52:12 GMT 10
Thats why Ive given up on writing for Newspapers. ONLINE FTW!! At present online is no substitute for print and certainly not for radio or tv. It is only a welcome addition. Any one who believes differently should ask themselves why pop/rock music promoters seek to dominate the music pages of the newspapers. |
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Post by glean on Oct 12, 2006 10:51:59 GMT 10
I think you'll find they are increasingly seeking to dominate online too. Newspaper sales are diminishing soon everyone will just read headlines on their phone anyway
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Post by Kenny on Oct 12, 2006 11:11:15 GMT 10
At present online is no substitute for print and certainly not for radio or tv. It is only a welcome addition. Any one who believes differently should ask themselves why pop/rock music promoters seek to dominate the music pages of the newspapers. Jazz isn't pop/rock. |
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Post by freddy on Oct 12, 2006 18:45:06 GMT 10
At present online is no substitute for print and certainly not for radio or tv. It is only a welcome addition. Any one who believes differently should ask themselves why pop/rock music promoters seek to dominate the music pages of the newspapers. Jazz isn't pop/rock. What's your evidence that jazz fans are big online users or more correctly, that the proportion of online users among those interested in jazz is greater than for pop/rock? |
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Post by antboy on Oct 12, 2006 20:18:03 GMT 10
online reviews etc are helpful maybe in an international sense, someone in Chicago can have an idea of what is going on in Sydney that way,
but in terms of people from Sydney coming to a gig in Sydney or buying a record it needs local help (radio, in print reviews etc)...
Freddy, I can't agree with what you said about the impro scene, whatismusic? audiences are HUGE, NowNow had 700 people a night (maybe not every night but often) for their last festival, Articulating Space also gets good audiences, sure the weekly concerts may not always have great audiences but in general the turn out can be pretty good...
I agree that there is often the need for people (non musicians) helping out with the organization of things, it brings a different perspective and is important, but musicians can often be both musician and organizer as has been successfully proved many times...
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Post by freddy on Oct 13, 2006 0:06:18 GMT 10
I think you'll find they are increasingly seeking to dominate online too. Newspaper sales are diminishing soon everyone will just read headlines on their phone anyway You are absolutely right. They are trying to dominate online but it's not as easy to do that. that's one of online's strengths. Newspaper sales have stabilized abit from what I've read and I don't think that they'll go away but they will change. Those who will read headlines on their mobiles and no more are most likely the same people who read the headlines in newspapers then turn to the closest celebrity story. Others will want more depth and read the features in the paper. When the internet started to take off about ten years agom I had just finished university and was ready for the brave new world. Accoding to the pundits, within ten years, we would email everything including wedding invitations, shop online only and travel agents and real estate agents would be history. Car sales online have become big (at the expense of ads in newspapers but not used car dealers) anything else? It was all bullshit hyped up by professional bullshitters (pundits) who make a living making predictions and are never held to account for them later. I often check the availability of a book or CD online then order at Gleebooks or Abbeysor Birdland in Sydney if the price difference isn't staggering. A lot of my friends do the same. |
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Post by freddy on Oct 13, 2006 2:40:47 GMT 10
Freddy, I can't agree with what you said about the impro scene, whatismusic? audiences are HUGE, NowNow had 700 people a night (maybe not every night but often) for their last festival, Articulating Space also gets good audiences, sure the weekly concerts may not always have great audiences but in general the turn out can be pretty good... I agree that there is often the need for people (non musicians) helping out with the organization of things, it brings a different perspective and is important, but musicians can often be both musician and organizer as has been successfully proved many times... Well, if the nownow gig was at @newtown there couldn't possibly be 700 there as the room only holds about 200. As for what is music?, they include a lot of fringe rock bands in their program and these groups seem to have a following but to my ears most of them are lousy improvisors. It's like the members of Sonic Youth. I admire their interest in improvising and I think they are serious but I just don't think they are very good at it. Anyway, that wasn't my point. We don't disagree - harnessing the energy of musicians is a terrific thing and we all ought to look for ways of doing that for the benefit of the scene. My point is that long term it's not enough. You need money to move forward and you'll only get money these days if you show that you can be accountable for it. That means an organisation. I think Jazzgroove has been as successful as they have been because they always employed an administrator. I agree that musicians can be both successful musicians and good administrators but only up to the point where the administrative duties don't start taking up the time needed for musical activities like practice, writing music, rehearsals, recording etc etc |
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Post by Kenny on Oct 13, 2006 9:50:37 GMT 10
What's your evidence that jazz fans are big online users or more correctly, that the proportion of online users among those interested in jazz is greater than for pop/rock? I didn't say any of that. Nor did I mean to imply any of that. I simply stated the obvious - that jazz is NOT pop/rock. You were previously trying to say that as pop/rock promoters try to dominate oz newspaper music coverage, that therefore jazz promoters should do exactly the same. I think that's far from a sure thing. For my own, I believe - as Will also hints at - that online is pretty much the only way to go in terms of spreading the oz word to the northern hemisphere. And, PBS aside, that is now where I mainly direct my energies. It helps also that I genuinely dig the company of the friends/fans I continue to meet at Jazz Corner and elsewhere. |
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Post by glean on Oct 13, 2006 13:42:41 GMT 10
Kenny that movie you're in is crap. (man I'm on a roll)
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