When Are We gonna Get A Decent Jazz Club??!!

[ramirez]

I just read the story about the band at Dizzy's that didn't get to play because no one showed up to open up the club, and it got me thinking. When the hell are we gonna get a decent jazz club in Melbourne??!!

Sure, we all like to rave to each other and to people from interstate or overseas about how amazing our music scene is, but really, who are we kidding?!

There's no question that there's incredible talent in this city. There's also an amazing ability from individuals to get off their own arses and make things happen, often with no (or very little - read 'token') funding..

But sadly this latest incident brings home to me the true reality of the situation. That in terms of infrastructure and opportunities we still live in Amateur-ville.

There seems to be no shortage of people with good intentions who over the years have undertaken the task of opening up a place (or even starting up a night in an existing place) where good music can be played and heard.

Unfortunately these people often seem to count on (and sometimes exploit) a musician's hunger to play as a way to justify paying him/her peanuts. And what often happens is that they start out with the best intentions but the situation just about always ends in tears (I DO remember the Cape Lounge).

We all rave about Bennetts being a 'superior club'. But in reality Bennetts is at most passable. Let us not forget the many a night when the place has been jam-packed, the band has been smoking and you still have gone home with $112.50 - make that 90 bucks cos you were stupid enough to have a few beers...

Then there's the week-nights, when getting $80 seems like the greatest thing ever because let's face it, the club is really doing you a huge favour by letting you play there.

But mostly it ends up being around $50 or $60, which means that you really have to make sure that you do plenty of extra work elsewhere in order to be able to afford to play at Bennetts.


It should work like this: The (any) club wants a jazz quartet for a thursday night. Ok, that'll be $800 (that's $200 a musician. That's right, 200 bucks. Quite a few clubs in Europe pay around that much) and a modest but reasonable rider.

I guarantee musicianship, loyalty and professionalism from all the members of the band.

I'm not naive. I'm well aware of the financial difficulties and pressures faced by anyone trying to run a club. But the current working conditions are simply not good enough for musicians. We all remember doing gigs for 100 bucks a pop in the late 80's (some of my older colleagues remind me that it was 100 bucks even in the early 80's when petrol was 50 cents a litre and boarding in say Carlton was $200 a month)...

All I'm saying is that If a 'wanna-be-jazzclub-owner' wants a jazz quartet on a friday night and cannot pay $800 for it, then he/she should just FUCK OFF!!!

I'd love to hear how everybody else feels about this.

XXX

[andrewh]

To be honest, I think the latest Dizzy's model has a lot of merit. 100 bucks for not playing a note seems to be quite good, especially if you can put three or four of those gigs together in the same week. It needs a bit of refinement, though: at the moment it seems you have to rehearse, promote the gig, and actually show up the (closed) club in order to collect your cheque. Better still is if they just sent you the money on the condition that you wouldn't even attempt to play inside their club. That way you could be doing a p(l)aying elsewhere at the same time. It maybe doesn't make long-term financial sense for Dizzy's, but with the number of people gloating at its departure from the scene, I'm sure there'd be some who'd be willing to pay to keep it closed.

[freddy]

andrewh said:

To be honest, I think the latest Dizzy's model has a lot of merit. 100 bucks for not playing a note seems to be quite good, especially if you can put three or four of those gigs together in the same week. It needs a bit of refinement, though: at the moment it seems you have to rehearse, promote the gig, and actually show up the (closed) club in order to collect your cheque. Better still is if they just sent you the money on the condition that you wouldn't even attempt to play inside their club. That way you could be doing a p(l)aying elsewhere at the same time. It maybe doesn't make long-term financial sense for Dizzy's, but with the number of people gloating at its departure from the scene, I'm sure there'd be some who'd be willing to pay to keep it closed.

Andrew, you fucked up big time on the Ezra Pound quotation but this is pure gold. ;D

[punter]

ramirez a lot of those clubs in europe have government funding to pay those fees
i think you're dead wrong
you can't make 'rules' about how much clubs should pay
if those rules were enforced there wouldn't be anywhere to play
what do you think make it up club should pay $200/head
plenty that sucks about bennetts for sure but it's been open 7 nights a week for over 10 years
would the scene be better off if bennetts hadn't come along??
if tortoni was just greedy then he'd turn it into a 'gentlemen's club'

[alimcg]

I'd be happy if Bennetts combined these two great elements - jazz and gentleman's club!

[sammo]

"All I'm saying is that If a 'wanna-be-jazzclub-owner' wants a jazz quartet on a friday night and cannot pay $800 for it, then he/she should just FUCK OFF!!!"

Strongly disagree.

[glean]

a decent jazz club

we are forgetting basic economics here i.e. supply and demand, there isn't a market to support a scene the way we want and I can't see musicians, the iddy biddy record companies and club owners in the Oz scene developing the kind of marketing tools needed to help create a demand big enough to make it economically viable... contemporary original jazz is just too 'niche'''' and I dont mean the Fitzgibbon Niche sorry couldnt help that last bit!

[captain]

You're right Ramirez but economically it's not going to happen. Unless we can prove that Tortoni takes enough on the bar and the door to afford these sort of fees.

Perhaps somebody with a quick eye and mind could sit in there and keep track of how much the bar takes on a typical night?

I'm sure we all hope that he's NOT ripping us off, and that he pays what he can afford so he can keep the business running.

Call me naive...

BUT we should be demanding higher fees. If dizzy's gets 25 percent of the door, the band should get 25 percent of the bar.

Its up to us to negotiate this stuff.

[jeremy]

I'm trying very hard not be an arsehole here but...

Wait, let me get this right. You are complaining that you aren't getting paid enough on weeknights...

I need to get some things clarified from you:

1. What advertising did you pay for that attempted to get people to the gig?
1a. Of the 20 people that turned up, how many were because of that advertising?
2. What advertising did the venue do that you helped pay for?
3. Are you supplying (and paying) the staff to man the door to make sure people pay to see you?
4. Are you supplying the staff and the stock to run the bar which the punters who did turn up expect to purchase drinks from?
5. Did you pay for the liquor license so you could sell the stock?
6. How about the servicing of the fridges, postmix and cofee machines?
7. How much did you pay to hire the PA system used?
7a. And the mics, leads etc.
8. How much did you pay for the tuned baby grand piano?
8a. or the drum kit?
9. Did i mention electricty/gas/water/council rates yet?
10. How about Fire or Health & Safety checks?
11. Are you doing the bookwork too?

Are you getting my simple point yet?

$2 out of $12 or $10 I think is a pretty small fee to pay for this, but then again, I am a greedy capitalist pig-dog. We all know the place rakes in huge amounts of cash and we swim in it during the day while laughing at the poor musicians.

Open your own venue, then you too can live in the fantasy world you think we live in and pay musicians as much as you like without any consideration for basic economics. Hell, I'll come work for you, I expect to be paid $50 an hour too.

(and now I remember why I hardly read this forum anymore)

[andrewh]

jeremy said:

I'm trying very hard not be an arsehole here but...

Wait, let me get this right. You are complaining that you aren't getting paid enough on weeknights...

I need to get some things clarified from you:

1. What advertising did you pay for that attempted to get people to the gig?
1a. Of the 20 people that turned up, how many were because of that advertising?
2. What advertising did the venue do that you helped pay for?
3. Are you supplying (and paying) the staff to man the door to make sure people pay to see you?
4. Are you supplying the staff and the stock to run the bar which the punters who did turn up expect to purchase drinks from?
5. Did you pay for the liquor license so you could sell the stock?
6. How about the servicing of the fridges, postmix and cofee machines?
7. How much did you pay to hire the PA system used?
7a. And the mics, leads etc.
8. How much did you pay for the tuned baby grand piano?
8a. or the drum kit?
9. Did i mention electricty/gas/water/council rates yet?
10. How about Fire or Health & Safety checks?
11. Are you doing the bookwork too?

Are you getting my simple point yet?

$2 out of $12 or $10 I think is a pretty small fee to pay for this, but then again, I am a greedy capitalist pig-dog. We all know the place rakes in huge amounts of cash and we swim in it during the day while laughing at the poor musicians.

Open your own venue, then you too can live in the fantasy world you think we live in and pay musicians as much as you like without any consideration for basic economics. Hell, I'll come work for you, I expect to be paid $50 an hour too.

(and now I remember why I hardly read this forum anymore)

1. Was the advertising paid for? Including the designer, the publication, etc?
2. Were the people manning the door actually paid?
3. Were the staff at the bar actually paid?
4. Were the suppliers of the alcohol paid for supplying the alcohol?
5. Were the licensors paid for providing the liquor licence?
6. Were the people who service the fridges, the postmix, the coffee machines actually paid?
7. Was the manufacturer/distributor of the PA system paid?
8. Ditto the mics and leads?
9. Ditto the piano retailer, the piano tuner, the cleaners, the drum manufacturer, the utility companies, and, dare I say it, even the bookkeeper?

My guess (and fervent hope) is that the answer to these questions is yes. Why? Because the people who the place is actually about, the people who actually bring the public in (because let's face it, it's not the quality of the bar, or the penetration of the advertising), are subsidising the whole venture. You see my simple point. Why should the musicians not be paid properly when everybody else from top to bottom is - in some cases with the protection of powerful legislation - being paid properly? Because, ultimately, as has been proved again and again, the musicians need the room more than it needs them. And there will always be more musicians to fill the gap. But to leap to the arrogant assumption that Bennett's (or any other venue) somehow, out of sheer quivering altruism, keeps musicians in business with its benevolent percentages of the door take is absurd. It's the other way round, and if the club can't afford to survive without the nightly contributions from its performers then it should be honest and humble enough to admit it, or close down - as the financial failure that any intelligent observer would conclude that it surely is.

As a best case scenario, the bar pays the musicians appropriately for bringing people into the bar. If the bar really doesn't believe enough in the music - i.e., it really thinks people are there for the bar only - then those people who want to pay for the music can do so at the door, and those who want to pay for the bar can do it by buying drinks at the bar. Otherwise - no matter how great the club is - the music is just an excuse to make people buy drinks at the bar. And any money out of what people pay at the door - which they fully expect to go to the band - is sanctioned robbery.

[freddy]

Those funded European clubs actually pay a lot more than $200 a musician. The Europeans are usually prepared to pay a lot more at the door as well.
The problem in Sydney and Melbourne seems to be that the door charges are low for the artists that draw. Look at Bennetts - the web site says $18 for Jeff Duff. Well, if someone's into that I'd be surprised if they wouldn't fork out an extra $2. Same with Chindamo, who's a drawcard why not an extra $2 there. Bennetts gets big crowds in the large room on the weekends but weeknights it's often thin in the small room. Why not cross-subsidise? The money for good bands at Bennetts on Friday and Saturday nights (when the risk is taken to put on a good band), is shit, no doubt about it. I'm not a local but the times I've been here and gone to something that was good and drew well on a Friday or Saturday, it seemed to me that a lot more could be paid than what people here are saying is paid.
I am told Tortoni had a career in the finance industry in his previous life. Well he may know how to read a balance sheet and run the numbers but he knows fuck all about how to get his punters to spend.
I like a drink when I go to listen to jazz. I don't get pissed but I'll buy 2 drinks a set. Except at Bennetts where the table service is nothing to speak of and if you're on the other side of the room to the bar it's a big effort to get to it in the middle of a set. So, usually I just have the one drink a set and save myself the trouble of fighting through the chairs there and back, having waited at the bar for too long because there aren't enough staff. As a result the club makes less money from me even though I am prepared to fork out. The drinks prices are too high because that's how the club tries to make up for lower sales. That's just bad business practice and the musicians end up with shit money because of it.

[skank]

Anyone that suggests that being paid $200 for a gig is comparable to making $50 an hour clearly has no idea about working as a musician and the question at hand. It can't possibly be thought of as anything like a job one is paid for per hour. Sure, there are plenty of opportunities to work a paid 35 hour week as a performing musician!! (Not that musicians don't put that much time in of course, but the remuneration for time spent working (years of practice, writing, organizing, rehearsing, promoting, etc ) and the opportunities for, and amount of time in performance aren't the same thing by any stretch. (I can't believe this has to be pointed out to anyone!!)
So, yeah Jeremy, I'd love to pay you $50 an hour, but you could only work for me for 4 hours a month, and to secure that I'd expect you to work full time, unpaid, on home work for your job and I would allow you to work an extra 8 or 10 hours a week (as long as it was in a different context to the work you do for me ) but you'd have to find the other work opportunities in your own time and negotiate with different people for every new 4 hour stint. Sound like a fun way to make your fortune?

[sammo]

You got into music for the money? If it's all about money teach and play jobbing gigs and forget about your own stuff. Don't expect to make money off your own personal projects.... just be grateful there's somewhere to play.

Charging more at the door? Melbourne barely has a crowd as it is... charging them more will surely bring them out. PS. I saw Ben Monder's group in Toronto for $10 and he wasn't complaining!

[punter]

andrewh said:

if the club can't afford to survive without the nightly contributions from its performers then it should be honest and humble enough to admit it, or close down - as the financial failure that any intelligent observer would conclude that it surely is.

mate the whole enterprise of 'art' is more often than not a financial failure...
it's complicated and messy and it's impossible to compare what a musician or other artist does with most other jobs
worrying about the fact that everyone else gets paid an hourly rate and that musicians spend unpaid hours practising seems to be really missing the point somehow.
if you added up the opportunity cost to michael tortoni of having bennetts lane open i think perspectives would change... i'm not saying he's the champion of musicians but he does care about music and that's why the club exists and it does host some fucking awesome music, not always popular or easy, and that's a great thing.
and again, if he wanted to make money and was just a greedy arsehole then he certainly wouldn't be running a jazz club.
i get a bit tired of all these musicians whinging about bennetts and continuing to turn up there and play.
and i can't believe people would actually rather see the club close than continue as it is, that would be really throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

[chromeaddict]

Well I've been one who has earnt fuck all on a Saturday night when the place was packed. I saw 180 on the entry list at $15/18 and the band got around $900. What's the solution? Don't do the gigs....Hire the room yourself (which Tortoni is more than willing to do), pay your own publicist, make your own posters, pay the musicians yourself and take home the profits (if you can make any- some can, some can't). Don't blame everyone else for making a profit when a lot of bands are doing fuck all to promote themselves and their music. I'm sick of muso's sitting on their asses and bitching about not getting paid enough. Take the reins and be proactive.