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Post by plunk on Jul 15, 2006 13:35:09 GMT 10
I don’t care. I will continue to worship amazing musicians until the day I die. Because their music speaks volumes to me and makes my eyes open in wonder to this incredible world. Without their talents, my world would be a far more boring and unlivable place to inhabit. No one can doubt the intentions you have ladylex- and passionate feelings need to be expressed both positively and negatively - "with sufficient thought and generosity." I think criticism can gush too.Giving critique with passion is not just the spontaneous explosion of whatever superlatives (or expletives) that come to mind....thats one form of passion . Theres another type that relies on one really striving to find the right way to say (or do) something - because the main idea is not to flatter an individual , but encourage them. Great critique exposes the soul of the critic, thereby creating a channel for reciprocity - as we saw with Tim's review of Jamie and Sams CD not so long ago. And likewise the humanity and convictions of Jamie's and Sam's responses. Anyone could see this was a passionate issue - and everyone dug deep to express it. One of the great anomalies of outright 'flattery" is that rather than encourage constructive dialogue, it seems to stun it, right there and then. Im not against the idea of passionate response-(without it,very few of us would exist)- I'm against the homogenizing of our modes of criticism and approval that seek to end passionate enquiry. I can "handle" your gushing ladylex - I trust its not a programmed response to everything you like (or dislike....) |
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Post by ladylex on Jul 18, 2006 14:46:24 GMT 10
Frank: the reason I don’t really like you is due to unnecessary comments you posted that may or may not have indirectly or directly resulted in Mark’s noticeable absence from these forums. It has nothing to do with your opinions. So now you know. Im sure though.. if you were to play bass in front of me, Id prolly forget such silly things and end up worshipping your goddam feet.. dammit.  Talented musos and their incredibleness always manage to overwhelm me. Besides, I am woman and I am fickle. I don’t care. I will continue to worship amazing musicians until the day I die. Because their music speaks volumes to me and makes my eyes open in wonder to this incredible world. Without their talents, my world would be a far more boring and unlivable place to inhabit. No one can doubt the intentions you have ladylex- and passionate feelings need to be expressed both positively and negatively - "with sufficient thought and generosity." I think criticism can gush too.Giving critique with passion is not just the spontaneous explosion of whatever superlatives (or expletives) that come to mind....thats one form of passion . Theres another type that relies on one really striving to find the right way to say (or do) something - because the main idea is not to flatter an individual , but encourage them. Great critique exposes the soul of the critic, thereby creating a channel for reciprocity - as we saw with Tim's review of Jamie and Sams CD not so long ago. And likewise the humanity and convictions of Jamie's and Sam's responses. Anyone could see this was a passionate issue - and everyone dug deep to express it. One of the great anomalies of outright 'flattery" is that rather than encourage constructive dialogue, it seems to stun it, right there and then. Im not against the idea of passionate response-(without it,very few of us would exist)- I'm against the homogenizing of our modes of criticism and approval that seek to end passionate enquiry. I can "handle" your gushing ladylex - I trust its not a programmed response to everything you like (or dislike....) And Plunk: I don’t gush for the sake of it. Nor do I gush for flattery’s sake. Do you really think any muso gives a damn whether you or I or any of us really like their talent? They may take our criticisms on board, but no one’s opinion is going to stop a determined muso from continuing to perform. If anyone thinks my gushing is a suckup – they can get stuffed. I don’t give a damn. Ive been around enough talented musos in my life to know that my opinion is accepted because I am true and honest and realistic. Its never a compliment and always the truth. And that’s rare in today’s world where people are only in it for themselves. Im looking forward to future reviews of Mark’s work. Just to see which ‘suckups’ will try and worm their way back into his good books LOL. It will indeed be interesting. Satisfaction is indeed… a rare pleasure.  |
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Post by timothystevens on Jul 19, 2006 18:42:57 GMT 10
Besides, I am woman and I am fickle. Ah, back to square one. |
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Post by glean on Jul 20, 2006 9:54:29 GMT 10
this forum used to be fun
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Post by plunk on Jul 20, 2006 10:17:47 GMT 10
"this forum used to be fun "
Yep- used to be serious too...
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Post by ladylex on Jul 20, 2006 11:28:47 GMT 10
I should laugh. But I cant. Cos how could someone be sadistic enough to laugh at such sad and unnecessary circumstances?
I am woman and I am fickle. I change my mind anytime and admit my errors. And I do frequently
So Frank…. Still think its an unfair call? Are you man enough to admit when you’ve fucked up?
EDIT: And if anyone wants to blame ‘me’ for the forum supposedly being unpleasant – then don’t come on here and attack the moderator. Hell... I only came to this forum via Mark’s invitation. Its HIS forum. If you bag him, expect his good name hto be defended by his friends.
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Post by giannim on Jul 20, 2006 12:13:47 GMT 10
I'm sorry 'jazzpolice' ,but if you can't use your real name, then what right have you got to lecture Frank? Agree or disagree with him, he has had the descency to post under his name and stand behind what he says...."Third rate bass player"  ??Are you serious? At what point did Frank even enter into such childish name calling. Any musician of any worth knows what rubbish that is. I just witnessed Frank play the best bass I have ever heard (anywhere in the world) on Sunday night. Ther is no need to get into this personal insult stuff, as if you read Franks posts, he does not go there. |
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Post by Kenny on Jul 20, 2006 14:22:34 GMT 10
Just to clarify: Mark and I sorted out that mess by email. He was dismayed more by the timing than the content, especially as it was coming from he considers a friend (and continues to do so, I hope!)
But I agree with Frank, too: I should enjoy the space and freedom to make that sort of comment.
As I've pointed out before, on the US boards I frequent, the proportion of members who are musos is much, much lower than here. And much the better for it.
That brouhaha with Mark DID tip me over the edge to staying away from here, however.
There are some righteously fine people (and some I have a genuinely warm relationship with) in the Melbourne jazz scene, but collectively - as represented by the outpourings on this forum - the impression is one whining.
Maybe it's a false impression, but nevertheless I'm finding it tough - close to impossible, in fact - to review new Australian releases for fear of the sort of scrutiny that goes down here. Why bother when you're almost certainly going to be bollocked for your efforts? (PBS/Pearls tranmissions of said ozjazz will continue unabated, BTW.)
It's a pleasure to be buying and enjoying music for the simple delights of it again. And I'm finding it much easier to do that by keeping the concerns of the people who make the music at a long arm's length.
So I'm outta here. Again.
Hell's bells, one anonymous player even said something along the lines "I am a player, I am the music, you are nothing without the likes of me". The jazz I love isn't like that, mate.
To those who opine I should grow larger testicles (testes?), all I can say is I've been writing about music for more than 30 years. I don't want thanks, but I can live without the agro.
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Post by ladylex on Jul 20, 2006 15:00:30 GMT 10
You have no agro from here or anyone else Ive seen Kenny. In fact.. Ive always enjoyed your posts and think youre very kind *sadface.
But again.. I also totally understand. *more sadface
Curiously.. who the F8ck is insecure enough to bag your work on here? those meanies :/
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Post by ladylex on Jul 20, 2006 15:10:47 GMT 10
I'm sorry 'jazzpolice' ,but if you can't use your real name, then what right have you got to lecture Frank? Agree or disagree with him, he has had the descency to post under his name and stand behind what he says...."Third rate bass player" ??Are you serious? At what point did Frank even enter into such childish name calling. Any musician of any worth knows what rubbish that is. I just witnessed Frank play the best bass I have ever heard (anywhere in the world) on Sunday night. Ther is no need to get into this personal insult stuff, as if you read Franks posts, he does not go there. Perhaps ginnanm, JazzPolice may also feel the need to defend Mark. Because.. reading over the quotes that JazzPolice has posted which very much support his & my argument(s), Mr Frank does not paint a pretty picture for himself nor does there appear to be any respect for the gentleman who owns, operates and moderates this forum. This lack of respect really sh*ts me. And Id also be inclined to call anyone a 3rd rate performer if they were so obviously disrespecting a musician who is obviously far more experienced and reputable. Its nice to see that Frank has plenty of friends who are keen to support him. What a shame the same cant be said for Mark.. considering this IS his damn forum. |
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Post by captain on Jul 20, 2006 20:22:54 GMT 10
If Frank is third rate who is first? Let alone second? wtf?  |
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Post by giannim on Jul 20, 2006 22:46:47 GMT 10
It is not at all about me supporting a friend ( although Frank is a very dear friend). If Frank had come out and called someone a 3rd rate muso and a cunt on this forum, I would be the first to tell him that I don't think that is cool. Childish stuff that doesn't help anything. Why can't ideas be discussed (even if people dissagree) without reverting to this?
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Post by alimcg on Jul 20, 2006 23:40:35 GMT 10
A piano teacher I know once referred to Ahmad Jamal as 2nd rate. If that's the case, I aspire to be 2nd rate too.
Seems to me like everyone's been taking cranky beans in their coffee. I think a large chunk of the opinions voiced here have been fine, it's just the manner and choice of words that have let us down. Unfortunately some of us have been arguing on a Sam Newman level, while others try to be too clever by half. Well folks, the deadline has been set - 30 days to a new us...
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Post by maurice on Jul 20, 2006 23:46:37 GMT 10
I had said my good buys, but can't resist the temptation to join in again. The reason Frank has more supporters than Mark is that he is average, and Mark is not. Australians love mediocrity (other than in sport). They thrive on it. When I raised objections to Frank's tone ( not his opinions per se, as he kept pointing out), I was pilloried by most of you. You're all really sensitive guys, I know, but only extend your graciousness towards people you don't find threatening. It's the way of the world, so it doesn't surprise me. Is this site really closing down? Perhaps it's for the best, since now we can all do a little more practising and less talking. We had our chance to turn this forum into something worthwhile, and fucked it up.
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Post by maurice on Jul 21, 2006 10:49:30 GMT 10
Which kind did you have in mind?
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Talented musos and their incredibleness always manage to overwhelm me. Besides, I am woman and I am fickle. 
??Are you serious? At what point did Frank even enter into such childish name calling. Any musician of any worth knows what rubbish that is. I just witnessed Frank play the best bass I have ever heard (anywhere in the world) on Sunday night. Ther is no need to get into this personal insult stuff, as if you read Franks posts, he does not go there.
