on jazz singing....

[ladylex]

shaggaz said:

Jazz is a term largely bandied about when discussing styles of funk music and DJ stuff in Europe too ladylex... make sure you don't make arguments based on google searches. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

EDIT: Ladylex have you heard of Sophie Brous?

Ha yourself. You obviously know krap all about whats going beyond your own backyard. How about you actually spend some time googling so you can actually have an opinion?

And yes: I have heard of Sophie, but until I hear her live, I wont be forming an opinion. I know James Morrison thinks highly of her. But hey - he thinks highly of Joe Marchisella - and none of you apparently have heard of him either.

[aj]

Mark Sholtes ? What's he got to do with jazz ??

[mim]

ladylex said:

Yeh - thats what I mean - just allowing accessibility to others without the 'elitist sniff not purist therefore not good enough' attitude.

Who isn't allowing accessibility to others? What about my post insinuated the presence of this attitude?

ladylex said:

And perhaps you (generally, not you personally) should look beyond google. I dont look at google. Ive been interviewing these artists.

Shaggaz was referrring to your statement about kids dancing to jazz in European clubs. Have you interviewed artists whose music is being played in European clubs? (from what I've heard, most kids are dancing to the Venga Boys in European clubs.)

ladylex said:

Blue Note has been getting in on it. Is Blue Note not good enough?

What has Blue note been getting in on?

ladylex said:

And too bad if Jazz Musos dont want it going 'that way'. Doesnt mean that the rest of the population cant enjoy it simply because the elitism of jazz keeps the jaw locked

I think the musicians playing the music probably do have a say in the direction the music takes. Fine if people want to remix some tracks for the purposes of dance music, that says more about the direction of dance music than jazz, and in my opinion, that's a positive development.

ladylex said:

Im taking umbrage at the fact that just because Im live in Brisbane means I supposedly know krap. I dont need to branch out at all - I get access to all sorts of music whereever I travel - which is not confined to the borders of Queensland thank you. I come to Melbourne & Sydney plenty. And I interview musicians all the time - not to mention that Ive prolly shared plenty of wines with them in carparks over the last 10 years since I fist started my degree at the Con.

I was saying that so far you have demonstrated only that in your opinion, the best musicians are from, residing in, or have previously resided in Brisbane, and that this does suggest either a narrow-mindedness or narrow experience. The fact that you have drunk wine in the carpark with musicians doesn't discredit that either.

ladylex said:

And - Youve havent heard of Mark Sholtez yet? What rock are you hiding under?

Do you think his is the kind of original creative music that was being discussed in the thread you meantioned him in? Again, I don't dispute his talent, but he isn't doing something new and creative. It doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy listening to it, however.

[mim]

ladylex said:

Ha yourself. You obviously know krap all about whats going beyond your own backyard. How about you actually spend some time googling so you can actually have an opinion?

Hmmm... that is obvious to no one but yourself, lady lex. You obviously don't know Shaggaz, or know that she's a learned musician, highly respected, who plays with musicians in other states and countries. One does not have to spend time googling to have an opinion.

ladylex said:

And yes: I have heard of Sophie, but until I hear her live, I wont be forming an opinion. I know James Morrison thinks highly of her. But hey - he thinks highly of Joe Marchisella - and none of you apparently have heard of him either.

What does James have to do with anything here? Are you implying that because he thinks highly of Joe Marchisella, then this exposes ignorance in people who don't know who he is? (And for the record, I was speaking only for myself when I said I've never heard Joe Marchisella.) I respect that James Morrison does travel to other states (even if it is often in his own plane ) and play with musicians in different Australian jazz communities. Because he does do this, he often becomes acquainted with players that are not necessarily well known in the larger context of Australian jazz. So just because James speaks highly of someone, doesn't mean they are well known, although they may be good players. There are some players in Adelaide that I'm sure James speaks highly of. You probably haven't heard of them.

[alison]

Preach it Mim, preach it!!!! ;D

[plunk]

Its pointless denying that Diana Krall is up there in the popularity stakes.Im not criticising smoothness or even formula, because the fact that I find her music so forgettable is nothing to do with that. e.g. Pat Metheny's beneath the Missouri Sky is smooth and formulaic, and its heavy too.
I believe that as you mature as a musician, you start to understand the intention behind music, the urgency, the reason for doing it at all-in yourself and others. When I listen to D.K I,m struggling to hear the concept that she owns, or should own. I can hear a highly marketable product with its sharp edges removed for general digestion which feels like its more of a corporate concept than an individual one. I like your description of her voice sounding like ice cream ladylex - because it leaves me cold...

[tam]

nicely put, plunk. (and missouri sky ROCKS. it's on the top ten desert island mix)

yes, ladylex. it IS lucky that music is subjective. it's the only solid point you've made so far....

and as for elitism im jazz... well, that's another thread i reckon

and you should hear what joe marchisella thinks of james...

[ladylex]

mim said:

[
Shaggaz was referrring to your statement about kids dancing to jazz in European clubs. Have you interviewed artists whose music is being played in European clubs? (from what I've heard, most kids are dancing to the Venga Boys in European clubs.)

God no! Theyve moved on.

Horace Silver as one example is being set to latin rhythms with hip hop beats. Kinda a weird concept really, but the sound is awesome. And yeh - no disrespect to the many awesome jazz musicians who ever were and are still about - but its nice to reach people who wouldnt ordinarily know about it. I personally think anyone listening to any jazz is getting themselves a very good musical education. Even if its Michael Bubble Buble.. he's okay (nice voice).

What has Blue note been getting in on?

Jazzanova is one of a collective of artists that Blue Note have bought on board to produce Nu-Jazz titles. The Eastern European states have been really jumping into it. Ive got a mate coming back from Miami who has a load of tunes for me to check out with the indication that NuJazz is definitely huge.

I think the musicians playing the music probably do have a say in the direction the music takes. Fine if people want to remix some tracks for the purposes of dance music, that says more about the direction of dance music than jazz, and in my opinion, that's a positive development.

yeh - I agree! As long as the artist is credited somehow, and represented well (musically that is - Ive heard some remixes that are just shabby), bring it on Miles Davis' Silent Way has also been getting a plugging in Cezch Republic too (set to house beats).

I was saying that so far you have demonstrated only that in your opinion, the best musicians are from, residing in, or have previously resided in Brisbane, and that this does suggest either a narrow-mindedness or narrow experience. The fact that you have drunk wine in the carpark with musicians doesn't discredit that either.

Really? That is not the case at all. I just say there are plenty of credible musos in Brisbane. Definitely amazing musos.. and they go interstate of o/s but come back. I dont like Brisbane as a city personally.. (Melbourne FTW!!!) but I think we are damned privileged to have them. I think Australia all round can be proud of the musos she has. Even as far as WA (which seems so damn far away!!). Of course there are awesome musos. everywhere

Do you think his is the kind of original creative music that was being discussed in the thread you meantioned him in? Again, I don't dispute his talent, but he isn't doing something new and creative. It doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy listening to it, however.

He isnt? I found his album to have a 'country' (for want of a better term - its not a good one though) aspects to it but I think its the shuffle rhythms and bass. I dunno. Creative yes. (considering his musos, definitely). Original.. well it is original.
And he's on his way to being absolutely huge - how can he not when he has a label and its $$ behind him?

I may do or may not know Shaggaz. It doesnt bother me. I can still have my opinion.

Sohpie was highly praised by James Morrison as being an excellent singer.. if I remember too. .. didnt she win some sort of James Jazz award? I havent heard her live. And Im dying to - just by the indications that the musos who DO support her and/or play with her.. she seems great. But I cant truly form an opinion unless Ive heard her live. Let me hope that happens soon.

And Plunk: youve actually explained something to me. I was wondering why you all have it hard up against Ms Krall. And yeh- i admit, her tunes are pretty forgettable. I love her voice. I love the musos she performs with. I love that she can play jazz keys soo well. She has a wonderful piano touch too. That can only come about from someone who really knows their craft - much as youd like to pass her off as a hack. But.. yeh.. the albums aint going down the corridors of history like Silent Way or Bitches Brew or any of those awesome albums. Wow. And thank you for helping me understand that.

Still doesnt stop me from loving her voice though. Or her jazz skills. But hey.. there are plenty of amazing musos in just Australia alone to admire.

[shaggaz]

you're really a jazz journo?

[aj]

hey ladylex, if you really like Diana Krall's singing & playing, that's up to you........when it comes down to taste, no-one can tell you what you like.

But I would ask this : have you really listened to much music by the great jazz singers ? Like Billie, Sarah, Betty, Carmen, Ella, Sheila, Shirley, Anita, to name a few ? I'd be surprised if anyone who had listened to them found Diana anything really special.

[isaacs]

aj said:

have you really listened to much music by the great jazz singers ? Like Billie, Sarah, Betty, Carmen, Ella, Sheila, Shirley, Anita, to name a few ? I'd be surprised if anyone who had listened to them found Diana anything really special.

I reckon that's a straw man argument aj. It is so obvious that DK isn't on that level - but that argument can be applied to many, many people - anyone who has listened to Keith, Chick, Bill or Herbie would know that I'm nothing special, or had listened to Miles or Freddie would know that Scott's nothing special. The problem here I think is that her hype tends to imply she is on that very highest level, hype created by lots of journalists and uninformed listeners. Be that as it may. But in my opinion that doesn't justify people going into counter-spin - to try and counter the hype they say she is pure shit. I'm convinced that if she wasn't mega-famous those people would not say the same things - this same paradigm applies to James Morrison in this country, people dishonestly saying he is shit to counter the super-star thing. I don't buy that - I don't care how famous she is - it's not my job to PUT HER DOWN because she is more famous than she "should be". I don't think it's an honest listener's job to provide counter-spin, or spin for that matter. I think we should react the same way as if the person was unknown - singing in Bennetts Lane for 30 people. And anybody would say what an excellent, brilliant singer/player about Diana/James under those circumstances. The bits that are missing that leave them falling short of Ella or Dizzy are irrelevant: excellence is excellence, supreme genius is supreme genius. None of us have passed the supreme genius test yet, not Diana, not James, not Scott T., not me. But hopefully we're all EXCELLENT!!!!! We all deserve the respect that should come the way of someone that achieves excellence at what they do . . .including Diana Krall (I'm talking about her music here, business stuff is another issue).

[aj]

Well, I think we're getting back to matters of taste/opinion. I don't think Diana is 'pure shit', nor would I agree that she is 'excellent'................I'd say somewhere in between. Her better records are good for what they are, the bad ones are really bland & uninteresting, although I'd say that has as much to do with the arrangements and choice of material as it has to do with her actual singing.

I think my point stands : a lot of people (& I suspect this may include ladylex) hear Diana & say she's great, 'cos they haven't actually listened to other singers who ARE great.

[isaacs]

aj said:

I don't think Diana is 'pure shit', nor would I agree that she is 'excellent'................I'd say somewhere in between.

What if I make the following definition as one yardstick of "excellence" - out of respect to your professional competence:

Any international act that Adrian Jackson would consider for Wangaratta or MIJF must be "excellent" by definition. It may not be precisely to Adrian's or everyone else's taste, but Adrian's committment is to the highest of quality and - particularly given the funds at risk in importing acts from overseas - we can be assured that any international act that Adrian proposes for his international festival roster will be excellent of its kind.

That was what I believed until now. But now - if I take you at your word as above - on at least one occasion you've contracted to import an act that is less than excellent - most regrettably one that is "somewhere in between" pure shit and excellent. What were you thinking Adrian?

But I don't take you at your word mate! She IS excellent. You wouldn't sign a deal with her otherwise - that's the Adrian I know. There's plenty of excellence out there that is commercially viable in a jazz festival context - I don't believe you've EVER booked anything less than excellent for purely commercial reasons, especially from overseas.

Diana Krall is an excellent jazz singer who thoroughly deserved the decision by Australia's premier jazz festival artistic director to feature her in the Melbourne International Jazz Festival. Adrian's reputation is his guarantee.

[aj]

Nice try Mark.

What was I thinking ? I was thinking she'd sell a lot of tickets, and help put MIJF in the black. I was thinking she'd help the festival program generate a lot of publicity, and maybe introduce some new listeners to the festival (and specifically to the support act, which was to be James Sherlock's trio, if i recall right).

I was thinking most people who went to the concert would enjoy the night.....which isn't the same as saying that I thought then, or think now, that she is what I would call an 'excellent' singer. (Maybe we have different definitions of 'excellent').

I was thinking that the tour (including the sold-out show at The Basement) would help establish her as a popular performer in this part of the world.

I was also thinking that, once the contract was signed and the deposit paid, she would turn up.

[aj]

ps : Mark, like ladylex, you're entitled to your opinion...............but when you maintain that Diana is an 'excellent' singer, tell me one recorded performance of hers that has touched you emotionally.