What do Jazz critics do?

[trumpetguy]

I think we are talkng about 2 different things - the practice room and the gig. Practicing specifics, including mathematical subdivisions etc is a good thing in the practice room but suicide on the stage. When performing the brain should bugger off (or at least conscious thought should) and the ears should take over.
Practice to develop the craft and play to express the art - in any genre of music.

[captain]

word. I have a bootleg of the Kurt Rosenwinkl quartet that is a very good example of how NOT to do it. Every solo sounds like a bunch of fucking etudes. I like the album they did, but this gig sux.

[bodgey]

I love Rosie, and that band - but there is one lick in particular that he seems to pull out all the time that is just pure patterning. After all his beautiful nuance and melody, he plays this shit and it leaves me scratching my head.

[gator]

yeah what a hack.....I think I know the one !- its an ascending triplet pattern that is accented in groups of 5, right?-

hell,I love that lick!(wish I could play it).

[ironguts]

I saw Kurt in Syd at the wine banc, is it Mark Turner on sax? Yeah, I didn't dig it at all, really cold and technical playing I thought by both. Very good playing on the level of that technique, harmonic and rhythmic shit all all over their instruments, but not at all exciting or enthralling. The rhythm section was bloody great though, but for some reason Mark and Kurt failed to engage with them, what a waste.

[gator]

But .......I dig it when Nasheed Waits plays drums with those guys because he makes them play off the rhythm section more...without monstering their thing - which has its own beauty.I dont see it as being cold-more distant or detached which is a slightly different thing....

[ironguts]

Is it? I sort of see cold as distant or detached. Sure there could be different agendas or reasons, but it's the same result to me. I'd like to hear them with Nasheed, what''''s the album?

[Kenny]

Thanks guys/gals for taking this in interesting directions!

I've gained the impression that the whole Tristano school thing is sometimes critiscised - by those don't like it - for just this kind of precision.

[gator]

Yep no doubt that its a pretty unromantic way of playing music to the ears of some - and I have heard Kurt be pretty obtuse and a bit 'cold' as well. Tristano aside, the concept is not alot different to what Bill Evans and even Bird and Coltrane to some extent were working on in their early careers.The sheer flak that Trane received from various people including his colleagues for sacrificing so many elements(particularly rhythm) in the music for the sake of harmonic precision would have stopped many in their tracks ....
I think it is the nature of this music that when anyone embarks on a strong musical direction, some elements get priority and others become subservient.

But I do see 'cold' and "distant" as entirely different.Cold is machine like, with no care or humanity.Distant for me is abstraction with enough expression as to make the abstract a "human" feature of the music. e.g.Glenn Gould, Jim Hall, Shorter, Lee Konitz, I think the agenda is the same as for any other improvisor - to express something personal - and the results are different because people are different.
I get why people dont dig Kurt and Mark Turner.I dont like that stuff 100% of the time.Its not music that is overtly 'bubbling' with personality. Its doesnt have the obvious blues inflection or sentiment either.One thing I would say though is that its fucking hard to play that way which explains why it doesnt always come off. I guess you might expect people who are developing a musical language of their own to empathize with that phenomenon.
Theres an album with Nasheed - Mark Turner - Dharma Days

[captain]

Actually I totally loved that gig in Sydney, but I was real young...

playing 'cold' is entirely a subjective thing, so it's always interesting what each person finds 'cold'. It's the same thing again with elements of music. too much head and not enough heart, its different for every listener.

[ironguts]

Gator, maybe your right with the cold-distant thing, I did find the gig I was at cold rather than distant then, not to say this is the way they always play. That night reminded me of a reception band gig, a wedding or cocktail party, the band just happened to be very able. I have however heard Kurt play some pretty heavy stuff too though I'll have to check out the cd you mention to talk further of Mr Turner.
On the subject of romance, I hate the romantic element in most music. Give me Bach any day before the romantics!
I'd far prefer a strong intellectual style with honest self expression like that of Trane. I would not call him romantic but would call him very passionate and expressive, not at all cold or distant. As for his intellect, well, he was heavy.
When you say it doesn't have the obvious blues element or inflection, thank christ, I think those things are often used as a crutch by players to invoke romance and that shits me to tears. I'm all up for those guys working hard on their thing, and best to em too, not enough people do stick to their guns long enough to really reap the benefits of the years of hard work.

[gator]

Yep to all the above guts....except that I wasnt really referring to 'romantic' classical music and if I was - there is Wagner of course - just a tad heavy!

[captain]

What about Trane with Duke, Trane playing Ballads, any of his blues work, Crescent, etc etc... He also has romaticism in bucketloads - thats the point, he's not one-dimensional. Kurt and co can play the fancy stuff, but what about the rest? That's why there's something 'lacking' because the band was addressing one approach at the expense of all others.

[Kenny]

Ah, the marvellous ambiguity of words - I too find Coltrane, from all periods, romantic.

But I like the distinction between cold and distant and appreciate the difference.

[ironguts]

That is weird, word and stuff, he aint romantic to me at all.

Captain, just because Trane played ballads and blues doesn't make it romantic. I hear him doing all that with passion, expression and an intelligent approach but not romance. Now Wynton for example to me uses romance ( even in his titles ). I'll have to do some thinking then try to explain what the idea of romance means to me,