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Post by captain on Apr 18, 2007 17:56:59 GMT 10
Of course! One can play a ballad unromantically, and a blues unromantically - there's millions of examples of this in Jazz.
But for me (and apparently Kenny too) 'Trane is definitely romantic - and it's on those records where its most pronounced. The one with Johnny Hartman is another stand out for me, and too easily dismissed in favour of the screamy stuff from 65. 'My One and Only Love' anyone?
Wynton romanticizes (spelling? that looks so wrong) the whole history of Jazz for his worldview so the music is going to reflect that. The man-woman stuff in his albums is much more overt than Coltrane, but that's a reflection of his obsession with pussy, more than the music itself.
Who the fuck knows if Trane was a 'romantic' guy or not, we should of asked Alice while she was still alive...
At vca I did a great unit on the shift from classicism to romanticism, I wish I could remember the specific criteria classical sholars use, there's some great text books out there on the subject. These deal with musical specifics (harmonies, orchestrations, forms) and how they became known as the romantic period. Tim could help here...
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Post by captain on Apr 18, 2007 18:00:34 GMT 10
Could we call the Coltrane 4tet music 'romantic' in comparison to Miles in the 60's? Alot would say these two bands occupied opposite ends of the spectrum, with Miles and Herbie and the gang playing more 'removed' and cerebral music. You could also argue that Miles is more romantic in his treatment of Ballads - however the quintet drew him away from the way he treated ballads in the 50's...
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Post by aj on Apr 18, 2007 19:43:20 GMT 10
I'll have to do some thinking then try to explain what the idea of romance means to me, Fisting ? |
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Post by freddy on Apr 18, 2007 19:52:18 GMT 10
I saw Kurt in Syd at the wine banc, is it Mark Turner on sax? Yeah, I didn't dig it at all, really cold and technical playing I thought by both. Very good playing on the level of that technique, harmonic and rhythmic shit all all over their instruments, but not at all exciting or enthralling. The rhythm section was bloody great though, but for some reason Mark and Kurt failed to engage with them, what a waste. I saw that too. Mark Turner interested me far more than Rosenwinkel who came across as a technically accomplished but unoriginal player. Knew how to build a solo and use nuance but . . |
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Post by bodgey on Apr 18, 2007 20:43:14 GMT 10
There needs to be a distinct difference drawn between 'romantic' and 'passionate' - Guts, I think you're onto it.
I don't hear Coltrane as romantic, ever - just passionate and driven.
I also don't hear Wynton as being romantic, because it feels like 'false' romanticism...there's something else under the surface...it's just about fucking.
AJ - you're a funny bugger. Reminds me of an anecdote I heard about a sax player some of us know and love getting smashed at a certain venue in Hobart and yelling out 'Fisting is the new Missionary!'. Not tasteful, not romantic, but definitely passionate.
BTW Dharma Days is a killer - haven't listened to it enough to really comment on the 'cold' thing, but was greatly impressed - grabbed me more than most of Kurt's albums with Turner.
This thread also got me thinking about the Brad Mehldau trio gigs I saw in Berlin - now some of that shit was cold as Christmas (thanks, Elton), but it didn't prevent it being passionate.
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Post by captain on Apr 18, 2007 21:36:05 GMT 10
Well, I'm willing to give Guts' opinion a listen coz he's way more experienced than me, but Bodge - you're just wrong. Wrong! And I'm right!! I'm always right!!!  |
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Post by alimcg on Apr 18, 2007 21:45:23 GMT 10
What the hell is romance in musical expression anyway? Romance is as open to misrepresentation and misinterpretation as anything else. One man's corny is another man's classic. Coltrane's playing could be seen in some ways as romantic, but unless you guys all work of the same definition, debate is a bit pointless. You could all be debating from the same side for all you know.
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Post by captain on Apr 18, 2007 22:39:46 GMT 10
well that's what I thought Tim S might be able to contribute, romanticism as defined in 19th century music - its a starting point at least for other definitions.
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Post by gator on Apr 18, 2007 23:23:31 GMT 10
Well - Im putting my foot in it and saying that I feel Coltrane is both distant and romantic - and Im not talking about lonely candle - lit pianos and the moon and all that shit! Its more to do with drama.. the dynamic of the Trane4tet is a romantic dynamic- its dynamically shifting, dramatic music - sometimes its epic - (Wagner and Mahler liked a bit of epic too) I agree with ya Captain.And about the way he plays with Hartman..By the time Trane and the 4tet were cranking, Tranes tone had achieved some of that distant quality that Miles and Wayne had, a sort of isolated singularity.
-sorry - words aren't working again -
(although Guts' definition for"cranking"...is extremely romantic)
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Post by freddy on Apr 18, 2007 23:53:12 GMT 10
A number of you are confusing Romanticism and romance. The first was an artistic movement which started in the late 18th century and influenced, literature, painting, sculpture and music. It developed in opposition to classicism and gave primacy to the imagination, intuition, the emotions and the wonders of the natural world, over rules of composition, construction and development. The second has a number of meanings related to a literary form or to the general idea of personal feelings and love.
Most jazz has a strong element of the Romantic because of its spontaneity. In my view some big band writing in the 50s and 60s tended to emphasise the formal at the expense of the emotions. I hear both streams in Tristano but in Coltrane I hear the primacy of the emotions.
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Post by Kenny on Apr 19, 2007 9:38:17 GMT 10
I hear him doing all that with passion, expression and an intelligent approach but not romance. Passion, expression, intelligence, passionate, driven. Sounds like romance to me. Fuck the candles and so on. |
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Post by ironguts on Apr 19, 2007 10:19:45 GMT 10
see, i would say that romance/romantic is more to do with the notion of evoking the emotions, buying flowers to get a fuck to be crass ( mm, thats me). Where as passion is giving anything up for your beliefs, thats what I hear in Trane, commitment, passion not some imaginary ideal of love or beauty at the expense of his technical ( rhythmic, harmonic etc ) ideals in his music, those are the ideals that reflect his intelligence for me. One thing that is not opinion is that Trane explored the technical side in depth, particularly when he got hold of Slominsky, he played with a deep understanding of structure in his music.
I heard Jane Rutter play Take 5 on radio last night, now that was romantic shit, the other extreme. No idea about the complexities of the music on an intellectual level, just trying so hard to be beautiful and meaningful, totally failing in my book, such dribble.
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Post by Kenny on Apr 19, 2007 10:26:55 GMT 10
Yeah well, as you're a trumpeter I know you're an expert on dribble. |
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Post by aj on Apr 19, 2007 10:38:37 GMT 10
I heard Jane Rutter play Take 5 on radio last night I feel your pain !!! |
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Post by gator on Apr 19, 2007 11:26:11 GMT 10
I heard Jane Rutter play Take 5 on radio last night, now that was romantic shit, the other extreme. No idea about the complexities of the music on an intellectual level, just trying so hard to be beautiful and meaningful, totally failing in my book, such dribble. yeah but you're talking of a romantic polemic.What about the love Trane feels for the music - thats why he studied so hard. He's a hero to most of us and that is a Romantic ideal -ala Romanticism --- as opposed to Tinky rocking up with a bunch of pansies and a tub of yoghurt... |
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