lebowski's

[big lebowski]

Hi melbourne people - just a quick reminder of two great gigs at Lebowski's leading up to xmas: this thursday 9 december at 9pm FALLINGWATER TRIO featuring Phil Bywater, and next Thurs 16th the Ainslie Wills group. Cripes its only $5 to get in!!! more details at
www.melbournejazzfringe.com

[Rich Bloke]

Too cheap to get in. Charge more. You are undervaluing yourselves.

[big lebowski]

Yeah, it's a tricky thing. I tend to agree with you, but you'd be surprised how many people balk at even paying that much. And in my experience most Melbourne punters of anything non-mainstream tend to be concessions anyway - what are ya gunna do? I agree that it undervalues the musicians, who all deserve to be paid at least $150 a show if they're going to make a living, but if we can't get a few punters through the door we're all screwed - we'd have to charge something like $20 a head to make it work, and in my experience folks just wont wear it. Unless you're only playing once a month at the most, and ya can't make a living doing that, unless you've got the telly on your side (and or the ABC, commercial radio, the Herald Sun etc...)

[isaacs]

I have noticed that there is a bit of a phobia about door charges in Melbourne. MJC charges considerably less than SIMA. On door deals in Sydney most bands don't charge less than $15 and nobody baulks. It's a shame to have to be afraid to charge more than $5 when even a concession ticket to a movie is around $10. It does undervalue the musicians.

[Vicki hb]

Totally agree, I would happily pay more. At the very least it should be the same price as the movies nowadays.

There are some gigs (e.g. Opera) where cost is a factor for me in how often I attend, but for most jazz gigs in Melbourne I think that charging another 15 bucks for working people is more than ok.

Also if it is mostly concession people attending the lesser mainstream gigs, then give them a discount, but working people should pay more.

[johnnymastropaulos]

I think that that melbourne musician's phobia about door charges is entirely justified.
people simply will not pay large (or rather reasonable) door charges in this city.
this could have something to do with the large number of free (or bowl) gigs available an a daily basis - at bar open, the rainbow, the spanish club, the laundry, marquis of lorne etc. etc.
the few venues that do charge covers are obviously encumbered by the fact that they're competing with so many free gigs. Lebowskis, MIUC, the Rob Roy etc. never charge more than a 5er.
I agree with vicki that charging 15 on the door should be fine, but that would result in such a dismal turnout for most jazz gigs as to make the gig not worth doing.
There are a few bands that have managed to make a big enough name for themselves (and do gigs only occasionally enough) to charge larger door charges, but these are few and far between, particularly in the jazz world.

The music we play is highly unpopular, and theres a lot of us that all want a slice of a very small pie, and thats a reality we have to deal with.

on the other hand, the cheap door charges, or no door charges do result in many people having the opportunity to see the music that otherwise wouldn't, and I personally think that's a great thing.

look, and at least we're not getting ripped off. I've done indie rock gigs to 200 people and walked out with $15 in my pocket. hey! thats enough to buy my way into three jazz gigs. cool!

[Julien Wilson]

Your reasoning is all pear shaped Johnny. Unfortunately, I believe it accurately reflects the reasoning of many Melbourne punters, who have been spoiled rotten for many years now by overly cheap (or free) gigs.
I agree with you that its enjoyable to play for a large crowd but if they're all getting in for nothing and the pubs not contributing any money then whats the point? So they can enjoy you're hard work while affording to down a couple more beers? Sure, some only drink water....all the more reason why they should pay some token amount. By the way, just to avoid confusion here, the free gigs you mentioned do all offer the musicians a fee of some sort. (except perhaps on the nights where musicians run the gig and have offered to organise the night for the venue free of charge). I fail to see how this mentality is creating opportunities for musicians!!!!

As a musician, who doesn't mind paying for quality, I find it hard to agree with you that its a "great thing" that people can come to see you play for nothing if the musicians are getting paid next to nothing.

We're all, (I'm responsible here too) doing ourselves a great disservice by agreeing to play for nothing. I did the bowl for a while at the Cape Lounge, but there was more to it than the obvious.
1: The bar staff did the bowl. NOT THE MUSICIANS!!!
2: It was to add to the fee the bar was paying NOT IN PLACE OF A FEE!!
3: It was a concession established by the musicians in co-operation with the owners of a very small venue after at least a year of being paid fairly and looked after: a sign of mutual respect and understanding. Without this concession by the bands the bar would have had to close, and we would have had no music.
4: I always hated the bowl: but I rarely walked out with less than $100each for me and my musicians.
5: the bar were always generous with drinks, and showed the band members respect, and let us use the space free of charge for rehearsals and recordings. (I'm talking mostly of the old Cape, the current owners are ......well I can't say anything nice so I'll leave it up to your imaginations). Which brings me to my next point!
6:after three years of receiving a fee, when the new owners suggested I now play for just the bowl, I strongly suggested they find someone else.

I miss the gig, but I see it as their loss. Go on: call me egotistical if you want, but they were making money out of my gig and they had a good vibe and crowd there every week so it is their loss.

Since then I have refused to establish any more gigs that use "the bowl", as a sign that it is not a practice I wish to encourage. I WOULD RATHER NOT PLAY! Those who now miss that regular gig and want to see me play seemed more than happy to pay a small price to see some recent gigs. In fact Im sure most of them would have paid more than the $7 we charged.

I do strongly believe that a professional musicians time for a nights work is worth at least $150. I also accept that thats not always realistic and that if your working for a "music venue" playing your own music as opposed to playing covers at a "function center" then the musician has to share some responsibilty and understanding with the club owner on a quiet night....as you hope they would share the profits with you on a busy one.
What does make me uncomfortable is the fact that by doing the bowel at the Cape (and the Laundry & 303, which all pay something.... just not enough) young musicians who came to see us thought we were not getting paid, and they therefor find that somewhat more acceptable when negotiating their own jobs, hence sending the scene on a downward spiral to the point where people can say that its a "great thing that we get to play at all. We should be grateful for an opportunity to perform that doesn't cost us too much!"

"at least we're not getting ripped off"
Yes, we are Johnny, but we're letting it happen. In fact some of us are encouraging it.

Dear Big Lebowski. Your right. One gig a month at $150 per gig won't pay the rent. However, using the same reasoning, 15 gigs a month at $10 per gig won't pay for the petrol! So which one's it gonna be?

It seems many people that come to our gigs are happy to pay $15. Thats $5 per musician for a trio. That means those who enjoy what we have spent our life working on are happy to buy us a drink each!! Even a poor University student would have to agree thats pretty fair!
Maybe having to pay a little will even make people think about what they're getting for their money, and in turn give the gigs they attend a more concert like atmosphere instead of treating it like just another night out at the pub catching up with friends with a band "in the background". Admittedly, there are gigs like that I love, but I'm sure they're not going to dissapear.
I am happy to pay $15 to see a band I really enjoy.

I propose establishing $10 as the standard/minimum door charge for my future gigs. (Thats gigs I book, I can't speak for band leaders who book me).
$10 seems more than fair and better than reasonable and for the 5 people it turns away I'm sure there are still 50 who will not even notice the price.
After all, its 2005 and that was a fair price to pay in 1985 when I started going out to see gigs.

Get out there and see all the $5 gigs you can cause with any luck, musicians will start to use their heads and $5 gigs will become a thing of the past next year.

Q: Who can't afford $5 to see a gig?
A: Melbourne Musicians!
Q: Why not?
A: ?!?!?!?!?!?!?
See my point!

[Willard]

Julien said:

What does make me uncomfortable is the fact that by doing the bowel at the Cape...

Actually, I think I'll leave that one alone.

[Julien Wilson]

Didn't take long for someone to find that.
In fact it was left there on purpose as it seemed appropriate. You ,Willard, my friend, did manage to put it in a paper bag and set fire to it though. Nice distraction from my point.
Seriously though.....Any thoughts on establishing a standard entry fee?
Some sort of Unity amongst musicians?
Thats what interests me. Not doing my bowel at the C-ap Lounge.
Love to hear some thoughts that don't go "squelch".

[peterk]

well put jules

[jw]

Thanks for staying with me there PK.
thoughts, theories, observations, comments, queries, criticisms?
I always try to put paper in the bowl.
No Willard! Not toilet paper.

[isaacs]

Good on ya Julien. It seems to me that Melbourne musicians need to work to CHANGE the prevailing culture and not RESPOND to it by buying into the status quo and thus perpetuating it. Apart from people getting paid properly if door charges are set right the punters are more inclined to shut up and listen having dug a bit deeper. RISK and ACCEPT a few people whinging and even refusing higher charges initially, most people will come with you. Anyway, the ones that come with you are the ones you want.

[johnnymastropaulos]

Jules,
When I commented that it was a great thing for people to hear us play, I wasn't trying to say that it was good for us -rather that it was good for them, and I personally take home some happiness at the end of the night if I've showed somebody something they otherwise would never have even imagined existed. (maybe thats a bit airy-fairy feely-feely on my part, but nevertheless).
I AM NOT saying that musicians should not get paid their fair due, and I very, very rarely play at venues that seem to me to be making money off musicians without fairly compensating them. the New Cape I don't even enter lately, as I don't play at Dizzy's, and more recently the rob roy, and the stage on smith st.

What I am saying is that the reality of the situation is that most, that is ALMOST all, contemporary melbourne jazz bands do not have sufficient pulling power in a club environment to charge what within rights should be a fair cover. I am certainly not saying here that these groups do not deserve to get paid properly (many of them are entirely brilliant), but that they simply do not have the fire power.
I think you could safely assume that you and your projects are one of the "few bands that have managed to make a big enough name for themselves to charge larger door charges" (quoting myself... hmmm....) which is why in your case people are perfectly happy to fork out the dosh to see you play. >>>"It seems many people that come to our gigs are happy to pay $15. "

However, you are one of maybe what? half a dozen? a dozen? alright 2 dozen at a stretch of contemporary jazz groups that have that sort of pulling power.
Increasing the cover charge to fair rate at places like lebowskis, or miuc, or halfbent, would mean nothing less than the destruction of those institutions, who are struggling for a crowd even with the $5 cover.
what's more, I can think of a bunch of musicians who are in my opinion the at the top of their field in the world currently operating in Melbourne who struggle to pull a crowd and therefore are frequently working for fuck all, not to mention the legions of people the college churns out each year, not to mention the hoards from interstate - YES IT IS FUCKED that the money's bad, but where is it gonna come from? I'm delighted to pay a tenner or even more to see you or any other band that I enjoy, but on any given night how many of us are there? not enough and that's a fact.

I'm not saying there isn't a solution, just that I can't see one.

Actually on this matter I suspect Chid-nay might have a lot to teach us.

jw: I put paper in the bowl too. all that change just makes so much goddamn noise.

[Tiger]

Yeah , thats great Jules

[isaacs]

johnnymastropaulos said:

What I am saying is that the reality of the situation is that most, that is ALMOST all, contemporary Melbourne jazz bands do not have sufficient pulling power in a club environment to charge what within rights should be a fair cover

Hey Johnny I'm curious. I don't want to presume too much because I am not familiar with the breadth of the Melbourne scene. But I don't get why because a band is not pulling a big crowd it has to charge less. It seems to me you set a fair price and then try and expand the audience from there, not, "We only pull a few people so we daren't charge more". That assumes that there is a quantum link between the price and the numbers. That all the punters are simply out looking for a "bargain" and if there's not many of them it's not enough of a bargain. By that reasoning you'd end up dropping your price still more. "Gee there's not many here we better charge less again, and if that doesn't work we'll make it free or pay people to come". I'm exaggerating, but it seems musicians and presenters do say "There's not many people so we can't possibly charge more".

I would have thought the thing to do is set a fair price FROM THE BEGINNING. And then build the audience from there. On a business model, it's like "The product is worth this, this is what we charge and we'll aim to build awareness while holding to our price". Trouble is it sounds like there's been price gouging in Melbourne, with everyone cutting their price to get gigs. That's going to be hard to turn around as the punters have now been coddled. But it can be done I'm sure. It might take a moment but a different mindset will descend on the punters. People DO perceive more value in something they have to pay for (within reason, and $10-$15 for an established band is more than reasonable). But if only 40 loyal fans are going to come and that's the best that can be hoped for, isn't it better they pay $10-$15 than $5? Wouldn't they be happy to?

By the way, I'm not talking theoretically. I did a string of door deals at the Side On Cafe in the last couple of years. I never charged less than $15 and I hasten to add that my audience is NOT assured after 25 years of playing in Sydney. Some nights - especially mid-week - we only got 30 people, but at $15 it made sure there was still a good door for the band. We didn't assume we had to drop our price. Later on more people came. It was just finding them and was nothing to do with having to charge less.

Even for younger bands that are not so well established jazzgroove here in Sydney charges $8.

I really think that it's a mindset. And I don't believe in accommodating people's need to have extra cash to DRINK. It's a music performance not a pub crawl. You don't have movie houses dropping their admission price so people can spend more on popcorn.