lebowski's

[happy]

yep, it's a tricky one, that's for sure. I've been on all sides of this one as a performer, promoter and doorbitch and I still don't know what the answer is. As a performer, it can be heartbreaking to play for a pitifully small crowd (Mark, I'm afraid most non-commercial gigs that I've been to in Melbourne over the past few years would struggle to pull 30 payers - that's seen as a good house where I'm sitting! And that's for established bands of high quality with good promotion and some radio support). As well as the number of venues providing really high quality music for no cover, there is now a festival of some sort (often free) nearly every weekend. The theory (I believe) in the low door charge policy is to encourage 'punting' - i.e. to bring in people who would otherwise go somewhere else and encourage them to take a chance and that way build an audience. Trouble is, there are still a lot of venues in Melbourne, so the competition is fierce, especially when events like the Melbourne Fringe or Melbourne Arts Fest are on. I agree with a lot of Johnny's comments above, and lament that often the gigs that people build a profile on are free entry ones, coz that's where people will just drop in freely (old McCoppins, Rainbow, Espy front bar, bar open, old cape......) Perhaps Jules is right, and we need to band together and say hey $15/$10conc is a minimum door and we won't work for less? I can really see the venues above going for that one...Hell, the strippers in Melbourne are trying that on at the moment, here's hoping they do well and we can ride on their slipstream:) Hey why do we always wind up talking about Melbourne on this forum, what's going on in the rest of the country??

[Vicki H B]

Why was jazz so popular in the 50s and 60s and so unpopular now? I just don't get it. Are we all a bunch of outdated farts or what?

[Tall poppy grower]

The answer is simple Vicki,

Jazz is an OLD MUSIC! It is about something that happened in the 60s and its over now!
Sure there are a few people creating music of interest ..but its not "jazz"..
it may be improvised music? but its not Jazz..is flogging a dead horse..lets get that out in the open shall we?

When i hear people playing bebop..its like hearing trad jazz on a sunday arvo at a pub...its outdated..its sad and boring... its mothball music desperatly trying to keep the old form dissappearing

Rap music is what is happening now...and Rap is just the final freedom of the black man..Black people were not allowed to speak out for so long...and its taken THIS long since the civil rights movement for black people to finally voice thier opinions.to feel free enough to do so..and rap is the platform..and rap music..Biggie Smalls, Tupac..has more passion than a million lame , second rate beb boppers trying to regurgitate the omni book..

I mean give me a break..we dont NEED any more "JAZZ" musicians...we need creative people with a vision, with a voice...and they are few and far between Vicki...
Mark Simmonds was one of them by the way BORED...


Missy Elliot and Timbaland forged a new style of music by being very focused on TRYING to do something new.

I can jsut see the leather elbowers starting to sweat.....
DO YOU KNOW WHO MORTON FELDMAN IS?

Jazz itself came from a deep need to create and a staunch aim to be INDIVIDUAL and new..you cant have that, you have to work for it Vicki..
in the 50s and 60s artists strived to create their own voice..nowdays it just sad replicas wondering why people dont relate to their music...They dont relate people because the unconcious mind KNOWS when something is second hand!!!!! and audiences are THE hippest...so dont try to justify your secondhand crap music by saying that " noone understands my shit"

DIG DEEPER and people will relate !!!!!!
Make the effort.
Practice alot and harder than you have been..but with Intent ALWAYS..Always INTENT..DO NOT Noodle...Dig deep.
Check Steve Colemans Website..see how far people go..
All the music is free to download...he isnt corporate like most Musos..he is a serious artist



Why dont you people think in a furturistic way???
Why do people keep trying to sound like Bird and Trane
Why does eveyone get frightened when a tall poppy appears

YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION THATS WHY


thanks for reading

Rap is now


THE SPIRIT OF PLANET EARTH IS DYING, THATS WHY I LISTEN TO MUSIC FORM TEH SIXTIES- KEITH JARRETT

[tuggsey]

Yeah Jules! But the price on the door is but a small part of the problem - although it relates directly to making a living.
It always struck me as curious that in downtown NY bands are making nothing, and in northern Europe - particularly Germany -you just expect to be paid - anywhere from $150 - $400+ AUD for a gig in a little club.Its not related to cost of living or unions etc. Its perception and also its the culture of institutions - this may seem like a strange statement - but outside the foundering professional music -slaving scene in the US(weddings,pits etc) there is very little structure - particularly where new creative music is concerned. The same thing applies here too -even less structure.Not so in places like Holland and Germany - where institutions like the Jazz-Stichting in Holland , funded by the government, have helped to prop up (some)musicians and subsidize gigs for about thirty years now - long enough to change perceptions and formalise the nature of improvised music to the wider audience (an audience steeped in musical tradition)- in much the same way as the Government here subsidises the MSO or Sydney Phil. to the tune of hundreds of dollars for each concert seat per year!
The problem is political. the institutions that support this music eventually start to control it - they are after all corporate bodies with a public agenda. Art driven by committee sounds a bit Orwellian to me.
I agree with you Jules - what you are saying is essentially political We have a degree of artistic independence and little support- so the change to this environment needs to be driven by a collective will - the market driven nature of our society would certainly react in some way to a minimum door charge -. We just have to have the patience to be selective, (and have the teaching gigs), to sit it out.

[soph]

A whole bunch of melbourne musos (many if which are involved with our various co-ops such as lebowskis, half bent, make it up club etc) were meeting not too long a go on a weekly basis to talk about this problem. The meetings were instigated by a stalwart player on the Australian improvised music scene and provided a welcome forum to talk about new ways of enticing punters and bettering the pretty dismal situation..

What began as an exciting and hopeful new endeavour to better the Melbourne scene somehow descended to yet another weekly chore for some of those involved. I guess a lot of this comes down to the general feeling of exasperation regarding the state of things in Melbourne right about now...

I know most of us are busy with the many groups and gigs we are involved with, however, I still continue to believe that part of this problem comes down to promotion. The fact is that for each and every gig I go to within this musical sphere, and I go to shitloads, I see the same usual suspects on each stool and hanging of each bar....what does this mean?? That the listening demographic just isn't expanding at all..

The music we are making has simply not secured itself as apart of the collective (sub)conscious of Melbourne punters... Gig promotion is few and far between and limited to appealing to the jazz cognoscenti that are already in the know, so it comes down to continually preaching to the converted.

What has to happen is new and different publicity drives aimed at establishing Melbourne jazz and improvised music in the minds of general music lovers who are used to paying, at the very least, $10 to get into a gig....

At the average rock gig I go to the door charge sits at around $10-$15 and no one complains...I agree with Julien, if it's an established expectation that the same cost will apply to jazz/improv gigs, after a period of time people will get used to it and expect it. People are opportunists, if they can get into a gig for free they will, but if this isn't an option anymore then the genuine music lovers will pull out the cash...

Re:"Why was jazz so popular in the 50s and 60s and so unpopular now? I just don't get it. Are we all a bunch of outdated farts or what? "....I don't think jazz is at all unpopular now, in fact its listening base is diversifying all the time, the problem is making local jazz relevant to the people who think that all music of this type comes from the USA. You can't blame a person for not coming to a gig they didn't know about!

It is a sporadic event to read when a local band utilises press commodities such as Beat, Inpress, RRR, PBS, messandnoise.com etc to promote their gigs...if this happened more I’d say that slowly things would begin to improve

[johnnymastropaulos]

ha. mess and noise?

you're not promoting another forum on oz jazz are you punky?

You're right there about promotion.
my attempt to railroad the aforementioned meetings into the simple task of organising an effective advertising structure where bombarded from all sides by visions of a jazz utopia and bizarre ideas as to how to get the kids interested.
"The Kids want rock? we can give them rock!"
"What if we organised some sort of collaboration with contemporary dancers?"
etc. etc.

I beleive even the aforementioned stalwart gave up in exasperation in the end.

and mark... happy's right. 30 payers? thats a pretty damn good night for most bands.

on a purely economic reality level - what venue is going to agree to put on a gig that only ten people are going to turn up to - a certainty for most bands if the cover exceeds $5.

putting it all together - better promotion and making the gigs stronger might make it feasible for us to raise the cover.

[tuggsey]

Missy Elliot and Timbaland forged a new style of music by being very focused on TRYING to do something new"


Im sorry - Im no Jazz die hard.And I do know who Morton Feldman is.I really love rap when its heavy -not some lame soundtrack for a tits and ass fest on video hits.
Is Missy Elliot the Coltrane of our times? Or the Billy Holiday?
I mean there is something deeply beautiful about Coltanes most intense music - he strove to be the best player he could be- and it killed him.Same with Billy - hows Missys health these days?

[born again ape]

"Is Missy Elliot the Coltrane of our times? Or the Billy Holiday?
I mean there is something deeply beautiful about Coltanes most intense music - he strove to be the best player he could be- and it killed him.Same with Billy - hows Missys health these days?"

See this where you notice leather elbows on your jackets in your closet that you never saw before...
WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A BILLY HOLIDAY OR A TRANE OF OUR TIME?

this.is.a.
NEW! time,
Comparisons Kill! and maim the new.
You are chopping a poppy down with comments like the above!
You are a 'bra Boy in disguise .FACE THE CHANGE!!!!!





Its people like you who drag music down and then complain that its "not as good as it was"...

give me a fricken break!

Let go of your past. And it will let go of you.

Suggested elbow purifying music:

BEN MONDER: OCEANA
MORTON FELDMAN -PIANO VIOLIN CONCERTO
CHRIS 'APRA' -HAMS -THROW,GLOW OR ANY OF HIS SOLO PIANO GEMS
ANDREA KELLER- ANGELS RASCALS
MATT FINISH- SHORT NOTE
for that matter

"but they're liek the old records.....is Ben Monder teh Wes Montgomery of our times?"

NO!

[johnnymastropaulos]

OH What?!!!

thats utter bullshit.

COltrane and Billy Died cos they both did shit loads of drugs. thats the reason. not becasue they practiced too hard or something.
are you saying you have to do drugs to be a great musician OR that you're not a great musician because you're not doing drugs?

I'm doing drugs right now and I haven't made any good music since breakfast.

and tall poppy >> I'm not even gonna go there.

actually... just quietly I don't know who morton feldman is...

hmm... wikipedia.

[norton]

tall poppy person:

It is a conceit of youth to believe that novelty, of itself, is THE artistic goal worth striving for.

It has been instilled in you by those who wish to keep you sucking on the corporate teet.

Good trolling though!

[johnnymastropaulos]

norton: actually it's a conceit of the modernists.
I would hardly call the youth of today obsessed with the new -especially in regards to music.
theres not much around that isn't retro in some way or another. even our good friend justin timberlake is a bit of the old disco-retro.

what is trolling?

[norton]

Johnny, you right.

At least the modernists, as a movement, were aware of their predecessors.

Like what you was saying, my dig at 'yoof' is that by remaining ignorant of the past, it can be blatantly plagiarised and re-sold by the various stakeholders.

[norton]

trolling = deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards, with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.

[julien wilson]

Hi again Johnny,
Glad to hear you don't enter the new Cape anymore. After all, why would you, theres nothing going on there since improvising creative folks (don't mention jazz on a jazz forum, might offend someone!) stopped working there. Shame. They had such a good vibe going on, at least at the old place, with all sorts of musicians dropping in all nights of the week. As I said, their loss.
I love going past and seeing it empty. Makes me believe that "us players" (does that sound less jazzy?) may have an inkling of solidarity.
Hope you didn't feel like I was attacking you. I tried to be careful to just state something I've been thinking for a long time, and hope that it might strike a few chords out there. It seems from the word out on the street about the tiger and the Grace review that people have been hanging out here.
Nice work again Mark.
Johnny, some of my most rewarding, life-affirming moments have been also been when a stranger has been touched by some music I have been lucky enough to be involved in channeling. Often, they can't even tell you so you never know. I remember a guy at the old cape telling Ren Walters that he reminded him of someone who changed his life 30 years ago but he'd never got to tell him. That guy was Ren!
Look, my policy is always if you really can't afford it then come down anyway and talk to us.

I saw so many gigs as a kid (and even much more recently) from outside the back door, or trying to hear through the toilet window at bennetts when Lee Konitz was playing and I had no cash. I don't mean people should hang out the balcony at bar open as thats just getting crazy. What Im saying is if you set a decent charge you can make exceptions rather than making the exception the norm.
Most councils in Melbourne have instigated fines for postering walls and lamp posts and its hard for even very well established players to get plugs in EG, BEAT, INPRESS so advertising is definitely more of a problem than it has ever been, especially for up and coming bands.
I just propose to make an effort to stop the rot, and there is a disgusting amount of undercutting going on in certain circles. Publicans who used to always pay are now being approached by bands willing to play for next to nothing.
The Cape owners wanted to instigate a cover charge at one stage but the place was just so small....someone working on the door would have blocked the entrance.
I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't work for. (I used to do crap paying rock gigs in the early 90's (only $80 each!) and often now I feel like that crap price should be a happy minimum now.)
I'm just saying that those who are seen as leaders should be seen to set an example to follow.
You're right Tugsey, that cushy teaching gig is saving some of us, but what does it say to our students if it appears that we are happy to work for nothing just to get to play?
Where is the future going....or have we given it away already?
By the way, some music is boring (doesn't matter what style it is if its done badly) but people playing what is integral to their hearts and minds, and opening up their souls in the hope that one person may walk home with an experience that touched them is always commendable to me. Call it what you like.
If it has soul, if it touches someone .... it's worth doing.
Thanks everyone (mostly) for thinking about and discussing this one.
Damn! Time to teach!

[johnnymastropaulos]

Damn Straight Jules.

Solidarity is required on the undercutting front.
I Think, interestingly, that this is probably most important at the venues where the pay is higher than most (rainbow, night cat, bar open) but because of the popularity of the venues, the musicians are actually getting percentage wise a smaller slice of the action. (I presume - I don't have the numbers at hand obviously)

and I'm sure you can undertand the hard choice that many of us are faced with - play the music you want to for fuck all, or not play it at all. Here I'm referring to players playing stylistically unpopular music, not people that simply play music (proffesionally - If you can call it that) very badly for nothing.

And I think that the situation at the cape lounge is a lesson for us all - the amount of work we all put in to build that place up, and then to get shat on for our efforts. (why do think I'm so bitter?)
It's failure is a testament I think to the fact that we do matter in some ways. Many of the businesses in Fitzpow that haven't aprecciated the need to put back into the artistic community have failed dismally. I'm sure you can all think of a few.

I love walking past and seeing it empty too. a lot.

and it is gross to see so many singer/songwriter, dodgy funk band, dodgy latin-hip hop bands in there working for nothing. What must their mothers think.

It is a very important distinction that I think you've made about the difference between putting on a gig yourself and making it feasible (read cheap) and playing at an established live music venue for peaunuts because you're not as good as the people who work there for real money.
that sort of behaviour is degenerative both to the bar, the melbourne scene, and all musicians good or bad.

Hey mark. how many posts do I have to rack up before I get an extra star next to my name?
<primary school flashback>