lebowski's

[johnnymastropaulos]

>>>>that sort of behaviour is degenerative both to the bar, the melbourne scene, and all musicians good or bad.

and also insulting to the musicians who built up the venue through their sweat and labour.

[trane]

itchy balls make me mad

[Jamie Oehlers]

This is a great topic, and something I've been thinking about for a while too. Being one of those people who play the kind of gig we're talking about (303) for a small fee from the bar plus "the bowl" (or bowel as Julio may say), I've got to say I'm kind of torn down the middle. Having had this gig for nearly 5 years we have had the opportunity to develop a unity within the group that would have been next to impossible. I don't take money from this gig, I just pay the band, but I have had numerous other benefits from it. I have sold a lot of CD's of the group, we have had festival invites (within Australia and overseas) from people who have attended the gig, have had some great international players come and sit in (the night with Bob Hurst was incredible), and the there's the Apra cheque at the end of the year! On the down side, this gig does draw away from the other door sale gigs we do as a quartet, meaning that most of the times I get gigs elsewhere in Melbourne I have to use a different project. I'm lucky because I do have a teaching gig and don't purely rely on my gig income to survive, but 303 has created the opportunity for us to earn some pretty good money from overseas touring. There is some weird kind of balance there for me...

I don't know who organised the Melbourne meeting regarding these issues, but I wasn't invited....YOU BASTARDS! I HATE YOU ALL!

Seriously though, I am up for talking about this. Like I said, I am torn down the middle - I also want to make more money playing, and think that the audiences are getting a bit stingy (like that guy who put 5c in the bowl a couple of weeks ago), but I also want to play as much as I can....

[tuggsey]

but they're liek the old records.....is Ben Monder teh Wes Montgomery of our times?"

NO!


Hee Hee -the leathers not on my elbows baby.

Hey Johnny- youre being particularly literal - öf course these guys died of abuse - they were abused racially, marginalised artistically and abused themselves to feel better - artistic genius - early demise -sound familiar?
By the way Tall Poppie, Monder would be wiped out by that - not as a comparative statement - is anyone that delusional? but if you deal with your rage for a second you might realise that all young musicians look to role models from the past, present and inside and out of music - not to sound that way - but to adopt the principles that made them great if they can.

And Julio - I agree with you man - anyone who teaches or plays to kill time is gonna sound that way - teaching is alot of things for me but its not cushy.im working while Im not working.

[Reader]

johnnymastropaulos said:

norton: actually it's a conceit of the modernists.
I would hardly call the youth of today obsessed with the new -especially in regards to music.
theres not much around that isn't retro in some way or another. even our good friend justin timberlake is a bit of the old disco-retro.

Chasing the idea of the 'new' may not be an obsession for those involved in the production of mass culture; that's all about whatever sells. But the obsession with the 'new', especially the THE EXPENSE of the 'old' is central to many 'serious young men' at music colleges and other liberal arts institutions. This poor boy (Tall Poppy Grower) is so deluded he doesn't realise how old, hackneyed and well worn his 'call to arms' sounds. Tall Poppy Grower: try googling 'futurism' and see if you can recognise the gist of your slogans in their manifesto. And they were happening around the start of the last century.
Great artists, on the other hand, recognise and respect, and build upon what has gone before them, they eschew 'novelty' and 'spectacle' unless it serves their art and then it's not the spectacle they are remembered for.
In this context an artist with any insight is able to recognise that bebop can still be beautiful and vibrant, and so can traditional jazz. (Have you heard Chris Tanner's Virus? Have you checked out Lynn Wallace?)
The same artist will also be aware that 'new' sounds can come across as tired, uninspired posturing.
It's about authenticity! That's what links Feldman, Coltrane, Woody Guthrie, Ornette, Miles, Tony Malaby, Stravinsky, Bjork, Billie Holiday, Jellyroll, Arvo Part, Anouar Brahem, Dylan, Caruso, Evans...
Tall Poppy Grower, you have all the arrogance, conceit, and myopia of youth, and a lot of learning to do.

[tall poppy grower]

Chasing the idea of the 'new' may not be an obsession for those involved in the production of mass culture; that's all about whatever sells. But the obsession with the 'new', especially the THE EXPENSE of the 'old' is central to many 'serious young men' at music colleges and other liberal arts institutions. This poor boy (Tall Poppy Grower) is so deluded he doesn't realise how old, hackneyed and well worn his 'call to arms' sounds. Tall Poppy Grower: try googling 'futurism' and see if you can recognise the gist of your slogans in their manifesto. And they were happening around the start of the last century.
Great artists, on the other hand, recognise and respect, and build upon what has gone before them, they eschew 'novelty' and 'spectacle' unless it serves their art and then it's not the spectacle they are remembered for.
In this context an artist with any insight is able to recognise that bebop can still be beautiful and vibrant, and so can traditional jazz. (Have you heard Chris Tanner's Virus? Have you checked out Lynn Wallace?)
The same artist will also be aware that 'new' sounds can come across as tired, uninspired posturing.
It's about authenticity! That's what links Feldman, Coltrane, Woody Guthrie, Ornette, Miles, Tony Malaby, Stravinsky, Bjork, Billie Holiday, Jellyroll, Arvo Part, Anouar Brahem, Dylan, Caruso, Evans...
Tall Poppy Grower, you have all the arrogance, conceit, and myopia of youth, and a lot of learning to do. [/quote]


Yeah, you better write responses like this as a guest..just like I have to...because this topic so tenuous and brittle...It may unveil the difference between a stamp collector and an innovator.

I am not trying to imply that vital music comes out of nothing, that someone just finds the "new thing" by working hard etc.
I am trying to communicate to you , you old fogey, that too many musicians these days
are not leaving the trad and bebop nest. They built it ....but stay in it fearing to fly. YES they must build it using what has come B4 them WACKO! but they must move on(fly)

.....and your record collection (whoever you are because you certainly don't play an instrument) is not going to help these players to fly. Your hypothesizing about what barney bigard did just before he died in 1945 wont help either my friend.Chris Tanner is brilliant yes...but he needs to stop drinking so much...you can help him to do this "guest".

Yes futurism is an old concept- YA THINK?
But to try to belittle me for mentioning it is to join the globalisation frenzy which has succeeded in stopping people make their own choices and having the 'powers that be' make choices for them. You are contributing to this without even knowing it. You think your teaching me something...but what you are actually doing here is restricting art, real art, with words.
You can have your words..Ill keep my intuition.Good luck!

Kenny's quote about pomposity finally and truly applies to a post here.YOURS!

[Kenny]

OK, here's my wrinkle:

I consider myself a hardcore music nut.

I do a radio show; I yabber away on the internet; I write reviews etc for the SHS.

BUT ...

I have not been to a gig since Wangaratta.

I do not expect to go to a gig until the NEXT Wangaratta.

I'm just plumb wore out.

By late starting times.

By extended breaks.

By shit venues.

By the waiting.

By the taxis.

By the logistics of it all.

By the expense.

By the tedium.

Often the music can be glorious, making the effort more than worthwhile.

But often it is not.

It's a lottery.

It's noteworthy that this intriguing and interesting thread has referred overwhelmingly to bars/cafes/venues that sell grog and where the music starts later than 9pm.

I would strongly suggest performers think outside this closed circuit, the venues of which virtually automatically exclude patronage of a large slice of the pool of potential punters. And I suspect that for many of the night birds who frequent these joints, Bennetts, Lebowski's and Dizzy's aside, the music is far from a priority in the face of the next drink and members of the opposite sex. Or the same sex for that matter! What an awful way to play!

I know some artists embarce shows at less orthodox venues and times, and I applaud them.

8pm is the crux: When I ponder whether to go out, at just about the time I would like to be getting home to prepare for another working day, knowing that if I do so I won't be home again until after midnight.

As for kids, forget about it.

(I'll own up to other issues being involved. I work until midnight on Saturdays, so scratch that. I have Bennie on Sunday and Monday nights, and every other Friday - so scratch them. And on other nights, too, in a fluid situation that will continue to evolve. Also: For much of this year, much/most of my music pleasure has come from music recorded in the '20s, '30s and '40s.)

[julien wilson]

Hey Tugsey. Sorry, I didn't mean teaching is cushy. Mostly its hard work, and not that well paid either realistically. Had to cut short my rave here yesterday to go and quit my teaching job. YES!!!!!! (well, to be honest, only one of my teaching jobs).
Sometimes you get that student that reallly wants to learn and helps to re-inspire you about music and its inherent goodness. To anyone I may have taught that is reading this....Yes, I mean you!
Then theres the others, the ones that make you call it "work/a job".
Beats playing "celebrate good times tonight" at the Casino.....I think?! NO! it definitely beats that.
What do you say to those other ones when they tell you they want to play "jazz" for a living?
Maybe I could make them sit down and read this forum for an hour a day instead of practicing for a week then ask them to get back to me if their still interested.

Jamie (how's Perth darling?), what you've done over the years at 303 is great. Like you said you've built up a repertoire and other opportunities for yourself by having a little gig once a week. Sorry mate, sometimes its HUUUUUGE!
And you're not undercutting anyone else. And its a quiet night (I mean Wednesday's) so the band aren't losing anything by being committed. And the staff there and you have a good understanding. AND its taking some music out of Fitzroy and a bit more towards the areas we can afford to live. And all that other stuff you mentioned.
I understand the bowl in some ways. One night I did the gig there, when it was still out the back, and we had an honour system $5 entry tin at the door. And this FUCKING PRICK JUNKY FUCK took the money in the last song. I know who it was, I suspected he was going to do it but I told myself "come on Jules. Don't be like that". Theres was about $80 in it....total....for 5 of us.
No!! I'm over it now. Its cool. But fuck I was pissed on the night though.
And that 5c guy. Hey mate! Just spit in it. It'd offend me less!!!! I had a guy a few years back who thought he deserved a free CD cos he was at the live recording. He'd come to about 50 gigs I reckon and never put money in the bowl once! And he'd always try to waste my break by talking absolute drivel at me. And we gave him so much for nothing that he got offended when I said I'd sell him a CD for the special price of $15 cos he thought I owed him one for his support.
If I charge ten bucks..... those ear bashers will stop coming!

Look. If people can make gigs work, any way they can, and you develop a musical language and understanding with friends, and an audience develops, then thats great. And you gotta start somewhere. I've done (and know of heaps of gigs) that have started out for nothing or a bit of money and developed into something that the musicians can be proud of and some of those gigs even become lucrative.
You gotta start somewhere.
Bottom of the barrell's ok to see how it fills up over a couple of weeks.
Starting with No barrell spells trouble.

Its when shit goes backwards that I can't stand it. Like offering established venues a cheaper deal than your mates (teachers/associates) are doing there already. Its happened! Bennetts/ Bar Open/ Rainbow/ Spleen/ Cape/ Laundry.!!!!
Or continuing to perform at a residency while they chip away at your priveledges. You know how it goes.
The meals are half price now.
The meals aren't half price anymore.
You can only have three drinks each.
You need to fill in a drinks card.
Soft drinks count as a drink!
And so on till........
Do you mind if we don't pay you any more?






I'll be back.

[Whipper snipper]

Dear TallPoppyGrower.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??
?
You are totally out to lunch.
Barney Bigard? What?
Old fogey. Dont play an instrument?
I would imagine reading readers writing that s/he is a serious musician who is not old.
What is old to you TPG? over 16?
Over 14?
I wish you'd keep your art wordless! Using your Intuition instead of your mouth may be a good idea.
Are you black? American? A R-a-p-p-e-r?
Cos nearlly everyone you mentioned is!
I once saw Mark Simmonds punch someone out because of stupid "futuristic" comments not unlike yours.
I fail to see why "guest" needs to help CT stop drinking.
I bet you can't swing TPG! eh? eh? Like to hear you try.
Not that Im saying you should be able to, or that if you could you should do it in public, or that its something you'd want to waste your time trying to do (cos...I know! ITS OLD AND LAME)
but I bet you can't do it.!!!!!
Thats why you try to talk about all this modern stuff ( is Missy Elliott really that modern?) but you end up bringing up Barney Bigard out of the blue.
You love Chris Tanners playing but you hate him cos he can do drunk what you gave up trying to do sober, he could out-talk you in a conversation too.
I hope you put some notes in the bowl at his gig and don't think of yourself as the type of person that can "help" him drink less by not paying him for his music.

Stay right where you are mate.
I'm sending a Doctor round.

[Tall poppy grower]

Listen jazz stiff,
CT drinks too much because hes too brilliant but not nurtured by the scene...and people like you are responsible, believing music should swing...what like ting ting ta-ting-
you are busy dying instead of being born your dullness

Tanner has intuitions of the truth..he sees too much actually , thats why he drinks so much....but stiffs like you hold him back with your boring swing -living-in-the-past-scared- of - reality dross.
Man you been reading to many jazz bios..ABOUTPEOPLE WHO ARE DEAD NOW!
I work with Chris you idiot, thats why I can comment! You on the other hand desperatly hope swing music isnt dead, that all that shedding of old dead music wasnt a waste of time, that audiences will suddenly truly applaud half cut omnibook crapola -like what you play...
dont you see deep down that people dont like your music and they just wish you would connect with today, even a little more, connect with the current artists who are awake! aware! Why do people pack out the necks concerts..thats free music..but it connects.
Why does it connect- ask your self.


Thom Yorke
Bjork
John Adams
Chris Abrahams

man, when was the last time you heard Chris play a swing tune, except in jest

so much fear in your post, so much anguish...man , YOU need to see a doctor for your complete rehabilitation.

and Dont try to glamourise drinking so much either..its really just hiding some dark shadow that needs to be looked at square in the face,...because drinking , like crack means "the best lack conviction"

because after all we are slouching towards bethlehem....

does muddy waters swing?
coz if he does.... so do I.
MAcho swing, w should have a SWING match hey?

You stick to your Herb geller collection and hope time itself doesnt come asking you for an explanation.

I come in peace

The grower

[Rough beast]

Now this forum is REALLY bizarre.

[Yeh]

trane said:

itchy balls make me mad

Sounds like Brian Brown's new record, the sequel to 'Bells make me sick'

[hughsey]

Julio- another miracle of touch typing! Youre churning it out baby! - dont let my passive aggression bother you - I think we are all stumped by your forays into the history of the Cape etc.. Working for nothing should send one message to our students -that not enough of them are turning up to gigs.

[Reader]

tall said:

Yes futurism is an old concept- YA THINK?
But to try to belittle me for mentioning it is to join the globalisation frenzy which has succeeded in stopping people make their own choices and having the 'powers that be' make choices for them. You are contributing to this without even knowing it.

'Futurism' isn't a concept, it was an art movement, which didn't produce much in the way of good art, but it is of interest in terms of the history of art. It rejected the past, the 'tyranny of good taste' and although in itself the movement didn't produce much, it was influential. I'm just trying to make the point here that what you're on about is nothing new. And the way you rant about the omnibook sounds kind of silly to me.

And, I am sorry if you think I am trying to belittle you, I'm really not, but your contempt and hubris is really annoying. I mean really: " the difference between a stamp collector and an innovator"...
And I'm certainly not trying to teach you anything, I don't think you really want to learn do you? You're much more interested in letting other people know what's wrong with all they do: Chris drinks too much, I'm an 'old fogey' and I certainly can't play an instrument, and people who play bebop are 'busy dying'. Just out of interest do you think Bernie McGann is of any interest or relevance?
What about Bach, is that stuff just old worthless because it 'doesn't connect'? What about people who play early music on authentic instruments, is that a complete waste of time? What do you make of Schoenberg who founded the 'Society for Private Musical Performances' because his music just 'didn't connect'. Does that mean it wasn't worthy music?
And just out of interest, most of the music that really rocks me is 'progressive' music. The Necks are one of my favourite Aussie bands, also, Band of Five Names, Anthony Pateras, Tinkler, Paul Grabowsky etc etc just to name a few locals. But I also dig the hell out of a whole stack of more 'traditional' music. I love hearing someone with a really authentic voice exploring a standard; Jamie Oehlers and Mark Isaacs come to mind... nothing stiff about those guys.

[Tall poppy grower]

OK, last shot at communication with you:

ofcourse there is nothing wrong with BAch///or Bernie for that matter..
they are recognisable instantly as themselves...

but people who sound a little like some master musican... and nothing else

....

i have complaint with.
Even the Jazz Police such as yourself should be trying to foster originality and yes originality involves drawing from the tradition otherwise we would have some real rough beasts.

Bernard McCgann is a rough beats anyway btw!

The reason i say dont try to teach me anything is because ...you come accross like a school teacher with the tone of you response....if you knew who i was you would be mighty surprised..but its not worth revealing my ID becuase there would be too many whippersnippers and sulks


ok,

i come in peace, have a great 2006 and continue to be passionate about music as you obviously are...thank the lord

ps.
Im playing with CT next friday, come and hear me NOT swing!