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Post by ladylex on Sept 22, 2006 11:57:34 GMT 10
Who wouldnt endorse Christian McBride on ANY album? are you saying, if the opportunity of playing with Christian McBride came along for you - youd sneer at that? Wow. I gave my left arm just to shake hands with the guy.  Hardly. It just suggests Im less likely to be a sheep  Riiight. So its far better to belittle instead? When its hardly deserved? Mark does deserve the kudos. As do all the people who contributed to in whatever way towards the album. If any australian jazz artist - ANY - gets a fabulous opportunity, it opens up the field for OTHER australian artists on a global scale. That is how the cookie always crumbles. Whilst Mark may not be as superior a musician as Mr Grabrowsky, he has done very well. This IS only his first album. He's done very well. Good to him - and all the other nominees. I like good musicianship. And all nominees defintely have excellent musicianship. Im not going to sneer at any of that. |
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Post by Kenny on Sept 22, 2006 12:08:24 GMT 10
Riiight. So its far better to belittle instead? Did I say that? No. But uncritical support (which you seem to advocate) is, IMHO, dumb. Re Mcbride on the album: as other have tried to explain, it's a paying gig. Doesn't mean to say he thinks the guy's a great artist or whatever. He's a great player no doubt, but no better than, say, Brett Hirst, Gary Costello, Frank Di Sario, Philip Rex. Would you give up a limb for them non-Yanks? |
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Post by ladylex on Sept 22, 2006 12:59:59 GMT 10
What you call 'dumb', I call 'widespread' For Brett, Gary and Phillip (Ive never heard Frank perform) - yes. As with all amazing musos - yes. I am one of those apparently sad individuals who believe excellent musicians are gods. And Im the one in the audience with my ticket and buying the records/CDs. I cant be too bad And for the record: Christian McBride did enjoy the project with Mark. This wasnt him being polite either. |
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Post by alimcg on Sept 22, 2006 15:25:18 GMT 10
Spot on. I have no problem with his music as such (though I wouldn't buy it, no matter who played on it), but surely it doesn't belong in the jazz section at the ARIAs. Don't they have a section for vanilla?
Now ladylex, I know we're a small community and need to support each other and so-on, but we need also to show that we're mature enough to deal with genuine criticism when it arises. Anybody who wants to improve their music, or just themselves, needs to be able to take criticism and understand it - not just call criticism "sour grapes" or "lemons" and ignore it. Sure, some people are bitter, but if they put forward a rational and reasoned argument, defence then should also be rational and reasoned. Mark I'm sure has plenty of fans to support him so a bit of thoughtful criticism shouldn't be too much for him to bear.
I've listened to Mark Sholtez's album and from a personal view, it bored me to tears. I thought it lacked emotional intensity and grit. If I were on Top Gear I'd describe it as "boring" and "nice". I didn't really feel that there was any great depth to the performances. If I'm going to listen to music then I want it to make me feel something other than bored, and this album didn't make me feel anything other than bored. The band play like hired hands. They play all the right notes, but they're not a BAND. That's what I want to hear. Cohesion, understanding, meaningful understatement, energy. What I heard was guys paying the bills.
Co-writing with Peter Walters is in itself no defence either. When I listen to music, I don't care who wrote it, I don't care who is playing on it, I don't care what record label it is, or who produced it. I care whether it's good or bad.
Let me set Ladylex off again now...
Would Mark Sholtez have gotten this far if he were an ugly man?
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Post by ladylex on Sept 22, 2006 15:39:07 GMT 10
ROFLMAO Enjoying the lemons... much? Ive never been one for *listening* with my eyes LOLs EDIT: And wont you all be spitting if he does win. Bwahahah Personally: it dont matter. Considering that Jazz is *almost* a dying art (compared to the many genres withinin the community that is), may Jazz and Improvisational music continue to live on. I continue to find it amazing that people are just as passionate about berating music as they are about supposedly 'enjoying' it. and LOls at the "american accent" |
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Post by trumpetguy on Sept 22, 2006 16:17:20 GMT 10
What's ROFLMAO?
also, has anyone here ever bought a CD based on whether or not it won an award?
- no agenda, I'm just interested.
I'll start the ball rolling by saying nope.
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Post by andrewh on Sept 22, 2006 17:30:05 GMT 10
Does anybody honestly believe that winning one has any effect on a musician's career? Sure you could put a sticker on your CD and maybe generate another 20 cd sales. I don't know too many musicians, especially jazz musicians in Australia, who would pass up the opportunity of selling 20 more CDs. What's ROFLMAO? also, has anyone here ever bought a CD based on whether or not it won an award? - no agenda, I'm just interested. I'll start the ball rolling by saying nope. I think in fact the opposite is generally true, which is why record companies - the big ones in particular - care deeply about award nominations. You or I might not buy an album just because it got the ARIA but, like all those dodgy prize labels on bottles of shit red, it's a tool for the buyer who doesn't really know as much as they'd like to. If you're buying a Christmas present for your uncle "who likes jazz" and you don't know what to buy then the album with the sticker is more likely to go into the stocking than the next one. And, it's a story, it will be printed, people will see the name, etc. Congratulations to all nominees, I am sure whoever gets it will be very happy, but really, let's get back talking about music. It is the music. It may be the rather distasteful business of music, but for most of us that's still unfortunately part of the endless conversation about music. |
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Post by alimcg on Sept 22, 2006 17:31:22 GMT 10
I left the door way open for you to acquit yourself with poise and dignity.
Yes, I laughed at his American accent too. Yes indeed.
And trumpetguy, I second your nope.
Rolling on floor laughing my arse off. Ladylex, do share the joke.
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Post by freddy on Sept 22, 2006 21:23:41 GMT 10
Yes, yes, I know there not from here but the point about that cd is, that it resulted from Muller winning the Freedman Jazz Award and it was part of his submission as to what he was going to do with the prize money. It was part of a plan, an objective he had to fulfill himself as a musician. Muller has made a great contribution to the music here. Sholtez's "project", by contrast, has all the attributes of shallow opportunism. Do you really think the two are comparable in terms of what motivated the band leaders? The real problem could lie with the judges, whoever they may be, if amongst them were a few who thought that every American musician is always better than any from here, therefore every recording with Americans on it has to be better than the local product, and voted accordingly. I've met a few people like that here, haven't you? I think your sheep are calling. . . To recap - your Aria ineligabilty formula takes into account the nationality (or at least locale) of the 'non leader' players PLUS the motivation of the leader...genius I wasn't the one who 'connected' Muller's and Sholtez' CDs. You did when you invoked the 'Royston Vasey clause' insisting that all players must be local. Sadly you caught a couple of fish in that net. I tried to point that out to you. You dodge, give me another lesson i don't need, mumble something about 'motivation' and start singing 'Advance Australia Fair'. Surely there are more compelling reasons to not support Sholtez' inclusion as an Aria nominee? Do a little more than read the personnel and come up with a few... Ok, I'll accept that (although I'n in no position to do much investigating because I'm in Melbourne for work for several weeks but not based here) in which case let's return to the earlier discussion : should Burrows' record be there and if not why not. My objection has nothing to do with him trying to tap a so-called popular market |
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Post by freddy on Sept 22, 2006 21:53:40 GMT 10
If any australian jazz artist - ANY - gets a fabulous opportunity, it opens up the field for OTHER australian artists on a global scale. That is how the cookie always crumbles. this has got to be the biggest myth ever to do the rounds of the jazz scene. What opportunities did James Morrison'a overseas "success" ever create for any other Australian musician? Do you really think that festival directors overseas would wake up the next day after hearing Morrison with the intention of booking more Australian acts? Actually, I heard that Pagnotta booked Morrison for Umbria only because Ray Brown was in the band. Which is why Morrison had Ray in the band in the first place. Wake up - there is no trickle down effect, especially from singers to instrumental musicians. And don't throw the word fascist around unless you know precisely what it means. |
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Post by glean on Sept 23, 2006 18:58:21 GMT 10
i'll take DOn over the necks any day
I said ill take Don over, the, necks anyday
I said Ill take Don over the. necks any day
I said I will take Don over the necks any dar
I said. Ill take Don over. the necks any day
I said Ill take Don ov er the necks any day day day day day day day day day
the necks are intesting if you are into that warhol repitive thing sometimes I am but it gets tiresome after a while. I wouldnt wanna hear them more than once a year. i think they win a lot of awards cos the judges have no frigging idea and they think it is intellectual musique baby. I bought some of their cds play them once now covered with dust. Actually I am not a big Don fan really but i loathe this mainstream is crap, crap that goes on here on OJF it is just silly and a waste of space
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Post by Kenny on Sept 23, 2006 19:21:05 GMT 10
Once a year? Once, full stop, was enuf for me. ;D
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Post by alimcg on Sept 23, 2006 21:28:14 GMT 10
I got no problem with Don or The Necks.
As for the trickle down effect, yeah it is a bit of baloney. Perhaps it makes big labels more likely to consider Australian talent, but they aren't going to be rocking up to Aussie clubs with contracts at the ready. The big companies are in music for... well for themselves, let's not kid ourselves here. That's the payoff - small companies will care about you but not have as much clout.
Has anyone studied the trickle down effect closely? Remember Vince Jones' album with an American rhythm section? Since then he's released 3 (or 4?) more albums, all better than that one 'cause they feature him with a BAND. For my money his Live album with Simon, Adam, Sam and James is fucking awesome. And he sings with his own voice, singing a lot of his own songs (with local co-writers). Like him or not you wouldn't mistake him for anyone else. I know Vince bashing is a bit of a past-time among many "hardcore" jazz guys, but many times I've played his stuff to them and they've said they like it without knowing who it is, then once they find out the bad-mouthing begins! I'd say that a high profile local like Vince hiring local musos does more for the local scene and local instrumentalists than a big record company buying a slick sound for an Aussie comprimising their own sound for the hope of cracking the US market.
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Post by Kenny on Sept 23, 2006 21:49:38 GMT 10
The Trickle Down? Bullshit.
Joe Jackson's Jumpin 'N' Jive (Louis Jordan ripoff)
The Blues Brothers
The Committments
That Totally Crapola Swing Revival Of A Few Years Back
Stray Cats > Living End
Bubble Boy
1. All crap.
2. It doesn't work.
Don't get me wrong. I have nuthin' against these artists/movies. Quite enjoyed some of them, as a matter of fact.
But to imagine that hordes - or even hundreds - of people are gonna rush about wanting to check out Charlie Feathers because The Living End was inspired by a, ahem, "genuine" rockabilly band like the Stray Cats is tosh.
To believe this Mark Sholtez character is somehow opening up fertile ground for Australian artists is deluded.
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Post by alimcg on Sept 23, 2006 23:56:15 GMT 10
Awww, come on Kenny. What about Jive Bunny's remix of In The Mood?
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